Give Up On "seo", You're better than that. Evolve! Options

[T Bill]

I just read Jill's latest newsletter and had to make a comment based upon my experiences with High Rankings forums.

IMHO - You HR SEO Experts should seperate yourselves from the SEO Industry if you believe what Jill is saying.

Jill, I don't think that you are an SEO Expert. You're much more than that. So are many people involved in this forum. You're method and message are much more than simple SEO tricks and tactics.

What I get from what I read here is that you should develop your site for the user first with search engines in mind.

Jill's advice to use copywriters is not based upon the need to write good seo text, it's a plea to write for the visitor first... with search engines in mind.

So, you should decide upon a label for experts in the field of visitor optimization. What most webmasters need, more than seo, is help making their site optimal for their visitors. Helping visitors find the site is a big aspect of the work but it goes much further than that. This makes it much more valuable.

Start a revolution right here! Forget Search Engine Optimization! It is wrong. Come up with a new moniker and get everyone in this forum to promote themselves under it's veil.

I had a bad seo experience that cost me many thousands. That drove me to look in to SEO's in depth recently. This began my experience with High Ranking's Forums. From what I learned in these forums made me take a vow to forget search engine optimization techniques. I have unsubscribed to a number of newsletters and uninstalled programs that I used to think were helping me. I don't want any seo companies or consultants calling. I'm done with seo.

I'll bet a lot of others are too.

Come up with a name and begin. Maybe I'm nuts, I've been called that before, but I think that now is a great time to create a new, and very ethical, industry. The people here are the type of people needed to make it happen. You just need a good name and begin using it. Things will happen. Ethical people will win.

Please! We need something better than SEO!

[Jill]

Good call, Bill! I've discussed that very thing with a few people in the past. But part of the problem is we want people to think of US when they're looking for search engine optimization.

Something simple as Website Optimization works. And a more funky one that they like over at Cre8, which I also like, is Holistic Web Design (or something like that).

I'm so glad to hear your latest news! I feel like an evangelist...

Hallelujah!

(IMG:http://www.highrankings.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/appl.gif)

[SearchRank]

I don't know, Bill. Just because there are a few rotten apples in the kettle you want to throw out the whole thing out? There are bad eggs in every kind of industry. There are lots of contractors that will scam you or do shoddy work so should contractors rename their industry? What about auto mechanics? It is hard to find one that won't rip you off. However the industry still exist and thrives because people's cars break down.

The difference between these two industries I have mentioned and SEO is that there is really nothing regulating SEO now and because it is so new, it has not really been defined thus so far. This has allowed a few bad eggs to prey on unsuspecting victims. So the indusrty needs to mature, the buying consumer needs to be educated and some sort of code of conduct or organization needs to be formed. This will all happen in time I am sure.

At any rate, I don't consider myself an SEO but rather a search engine marketer because optimization of web sites is only a small part of what my company actually does.

[Jill]

Bill's right though, and this has been an ongoing debate with me and others who don't like me, for many years now.

They don't like me calling what I do SEO, and I don't like them calling what they do, SEO.

This is nothing new. But we're all too stubborn to change what we call it! (IMG:http://www.highrankings.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

And people literally hate me because of this too. Maybe they're afraid I might win the name in the end... (IMG:http://www.highrankings.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/lol.gif)

[qwerty]

I've always liked "web site optimization" (yeah, I spell it as separate words), but the problem is that people look for "search engine optimization". And when they find me based on that term, I have the opportunity to explain to them what I consider the term to mean.

If I started calling myself a WSO, it might be more accurate, but nobody would find me. And I just found out this week from a prospective client that I'm in the top 10 at Yahoo for "search engine optimizer," which is kind of odd, since I don't think that word is anywhere on my site.

[stephenmunday]

Maybe I can bring a bit of a different perspective to this by telling you about a world where there is very little SEO or web optimization, or whatever you want to call it.

Searching for information in English and in Japanese on Google is like night and day: In English I put in my keywords and although I may see some spammy pages in the top ten, this is now rare and they are fairly easy to pick out by looking at the summaries. It seems that since many websites have at least some idea of basic SEO (particularly optimizing for keywordsin body text) I can be assured of finding a good percentage of relevant results for any given search.

Now, over to Japan: SEO exisits over here, but is not very widely known or widely used. Pages are usually not optimized for keywords and really key web page elements, like page titles, usually have only the name of the company - or even "HTML bunshou" (translation "HTML text")! As you can imagine, this then creates a nightmare for Google in trying to provide relevant results. For me as a searcher, I would estimate that it takes me maybe twice as long to get information I want from Google in Japanese. The situation can be so bad that I sometimes resort to something I almost never bother to access in English - the Yahoo directory!

So I say "Hurrah!" for well thought out, ethical SEO (or whatever you call it!). Google should be thanking you and others like you, Jill, for helping them do their job of providing quality search results.

[lyn]

Sign me up for "website optimization" (or "web site optimization" if you must (IMG:http://www.highrankings.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif) ).
I've some real struggles even very recently, trying to understand what we mean by SEO, and a term that looks beyond (but includes) the tags and text that attract search engine ranking would do a lot to set the agenda straight. I could even argue for link-building under a "site optimization" heading.

searchrank - the feedback I've had here in our "ethics" discussions suggest that there we're up against more than just "a few bad apples." Once you eliminate all the real black-hats using deceptive and hazardous practices, and then take out all the shops that offer lame, lazy, uninformed SEO to sell some other service - there don't appear to be many real SEO pro's out there. Let alone SEO pro's who approach it with "holistic" tools and goals. Otherwise, why are the forums crawling with site publishers and marketers who are simply desperate to find someone who can answer a few basic questions for them?

The right answers always seem to cover more than basic SEO, and there aren't many places where you can find them.

L.

[lyn]

Google should be thanking you and others like you, Jill, for helping them do their job of providing quality search results.

Yup - can't deliver quality results without quality sites!

[Randy]

By George I think Bill's got it! (IMG:http://www.highrankings.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

As far as coming up with a different terminology, I wish it could be done but just don't see how. To make another acronym or phrase as popular as SEO would take a lot of publicity. Unfortunately those who do not have a fairly good understanding of what we do would never get the difference. We're talking the Press here. To them the terms would be synonymous.

Even then, let's say it succeeded. There would have to be some standards set down in order to call yourself something new and make it mean something. And some Regulatory Body to enforce the standards.

This type of thing has been discussed many times over the years, which is why you see some people refer to themselves as SEM's instead of SEO's. Personally I always preferred simply Search Marketing. People find what they're searching for and you market to the people.

The problem is that even this SEO/SEM diffentiation hasn't worked because there are no standards that people have to adhere to. Thus even the worst of the worst can call themselves SEO's, SEM's or whatever they want with impunity. It would be a shame to go all of the effort and expense to create what is basically a new brand, and as soon as it becomes popular all of the bad guys start using it too.

[Jill]

It's funny, because I can remember when nobody knew what search engine optimization or SEO was! Even now, the general public doesn't. I remember way back in maybe '97 or '98 or so, I had a high ranking for search engine optimization in whatever engine was popular back then... I think Infoseek. Mike Mindel was developing his [url=http://www.highrankings.com/wordtracker]Wordtracker[/url] then, and he emailed me to ask if that ranking brought me much traffic. I think I might have been number 1 even. I said, nope. It maybe brought like 5 people a day!

Today, a top 10 ranking in Google for that same phrase, definitely brings a lot more than 5 people a day, but not as much as you'd think it would bring.

A new catch word "could" come about, but as Randy said, it would take awhile. Even search engine marketing...it's taken 4 years for that one to catch on. I remember that Danny coined it in around 2000 or 2001. (Think he was the first, could have been others.)

[T Bill]

Yes - it will not happen overnight. But in a very crowded field, it is a way for you to differentiate yourselves.

I'm not suggesting that anyone give up seo, just improve upon it.

As Lyn mentioned...

The right answers always seem to cover more than basic SEO, and there aren't many places where you can find them.

Opportunity staring you right in the face.

Embrace it. Come up with a good name for those of you who offer seo and so much more. If everyone promotes themselves under the banner, you will find people beginning to get it and seek you out.

These days, who wants an seo screwing around with their site? We still want good rankings but we do not want to pay a lot for tricks that will cost us more down the road in lost sales and lousy or non-existent search engine placement.

What we want, what a lot of sites need, is Website Optimization. Focus on the visitor experience. Yes. Bringing visitors to the site is a priority but doing it using natural and safe methods that the search engines approve of will make our investment last forever, not just until the new Google update. Plus, once your visitors find your site, they will arrive without feeling tricked and have a better experience resulting in better conversion rates and a higher rate of return. This is, ultimately, the goal.

I think webmasters know this and with the bad press seo's are getting, now is the time to take action.

Of all people, this group should be able to optimize pages for people looking for seo. Once they hit your site, explain why you offer seo and so much more.

You're not giving up on seo, you're taking it to the next level.

Choose a name, create a set of standards you all agree to abide by (Visitors First!) and get everyone promoting it. By this time next year, those of you that embraced the higher standards will be considered leaders in your industry.

[OldWelshGuy]

There is a catch 22 situation here Bill, and we have discussed this a lot lately. If a group of people like us lot and the others who are like minded set out to stand alone. There will be 'Oh there they go again on their white chargers' on the one hand, there will also be the sad but true human thought of 'Yeh right so I am supposed to believe you'?

It really is not that easy, especially when no one can agree on a set of standards. I come from an advertising/sales/engineering arena, and you will be so amazed at how badly some 'specialists' think. About 2 years ago, I produced a handbook for the voluntary sector charity groups in our town. I did it as I wanted to do it, it had been bugging me for a while.

Now this was called the disabled directory, it had al the information about all the local voluntary groups, as well as where disabled people could park, what shops they could get into in a wheel chair, with help, unaided etc.

One of the banks got their arm twisted (by ME (IMG:http://www.highrankings.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) ) to sponsor the handbook/website. They used an agency to design the artwork for their adverts. Guess what? When the advert arrived, it used lots of greyscale. It even used 6 point text . For goodness sakes this is an ad agency, who, when designing for a disabled/partially sighted/elderly targeted group of people broke just about every usability rule there was.

NO use of high contrast, everyone knows that you do not go below 10 point text if you are aiming at the over 50's it is BASIC stuff. They got it wrong.

We all know that it should be set apart. I call it website optimisation always have. I really feel that there are two types, website optimisers (what I think we are) & website positioners Or website placement, (people who care only about placing web pages and care nothing about anything else).

Optimisation means in effect taking something to it's optimum, (the best it can be). Do you still think it is us who should change the name?

MO what needs to be done is an education of clients as to the difference between placement companies who look at your website and rankings, and optimisation companies who look at your business.

OWG

[T Bill]

MO what needs to be done is an education of clients as to the difference between placement companies who look at your website and rankings, and optimisation companies who look at your business.

So, you agree. This whole idea of coming together under single label and using it to represent higher standards is to educate your clients.

It can happen, it only takes a half dozen people to write up a set of standards that differentiates them from the old seo's, choose a good label, and begin to promote it individually. It may take a week or two to agree on a name and standards. Then, over the next year, with everyone promoting it, you will naturally begin to see results. If it fails, it was a noble effort with little lost.

But, if the time is right, and the need is there...

[T Bill]

I have to add. I believe that this is what Jill has been doing all along and why she has felt such anger from her detractors and passion from her fans.

Visitors first with search engines in mind. No tricks.

Simple common sense methods that benefit the webmasters, their visitors and the search engines.

Forget div tags and comment tags. Be a destination worthy of your visitors and a value to the search engines.

That's the message I get here.

So, take it up a level. Stand behind what you believe in and bring your industry to that new level. You can only improve upon an industry that is in the tank right now. Be the shining stars of the industry. The effort will not be in vain. It can only benefit you and your clients at the very least. It could revitalize a whole industry.

BTW - it's a great pr angle.

[lyn]

In the past week, I've seen references to Karon as "our copywriting expert" and to Scottie as "our usability expert" and I know we have others who are especialy expert in site design and linking programs and dynamic content and PPC, etc. This all points to a multidisciplinary vision of "optimisation". Optimising content for search engines is part of it, but it looks obvious to me that we delaign with "so much more" here.

That's why this is the only forum I hang around in - comprehensive answers to multifacted problems.

L.