Secondary Search Engines? Options

[FredAt]

A book on PPC that I am currently reading - think the authors are called Mordkovich - suggests that a good beginning approach to PPC is target one of the less important search engines first rather than Yahoo or Google. This may well make sense but it also triggers several questions

• Does it really make sense? I for one have not used anything other than Google since the year 2000. True, I occassionally use a regional search engine for where I stay but it is to seek regional information.
• Is there a "Search Engine of Search Engines" I could use to do efficiently relevant keyword searches on multiple engines to decide which is a good first choice? What I mean is enter keywords as in Google but get results consolidated across a number of engines?
• They suggest that it is better to aim for a 3-5 rank in PPC ads rather than the first two. The argument is that this is both more cost effective and plays better with users who largely click the first link out of curiosity and then move on. Sounds logical again but I prefer to get several views before I act on advice.
• I gather that Google and Yahoo allow PPC displays to be targeted geographically but that Google requires a justification for demanding this service - i.e. in the form of regional relevance. My reason for opting for this would be to (a) better control costs ((IMG:http://www.highrankings.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/cool.gif) target the professional community for our software products whom I know would be more concentrated in urban areas such as London, New York etc. However, that is not quite the same thing as wanting a regional listing for Newcastle because I am selling pizzas there. Will the logic wash with Google et al?

It could well be that I am asking questions that have already been asked and answered elsewhere on these forums. I am not being lazy - I just spend far too much time at computers already so it makes more sense to post specific questions and collate replies.

I would much appreciate any help.

[chrisbiber]

OK - time to debunk some myths here (IMG:http://www.highrankings.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

Google - Yahoo - MSN; those are the 3 top search engines which together capture the vast majority of Internet searches. Why would you go somewhere else??

Re. aiming for 3-5: the only way to know this with any accuracy fory your own circumstances is to run a small test with adwords and then track results via your analytics capabilities. For the majority of our clients, #1 and 2 positions outperform 3 & below by a wide margin (and I don't mean just in clicks, but in actual conversions and cost per conversion...

Google lets you target geographic regions quite easily. The only way where I can think of it demanding a justification is if you're trying to get into Google Local. You need to have a verifiable business address in a particular region. Other than that, you can easily setup a PPC campaign that only targets New York, London, whatever...

Good luck.

Chris

This post has been edited by chrisbiber: Dec 17 2006, 04:46 PM

[Scottie]

What terrible advice!! Why would you want "traffic" from secondary PPC providers that no one actually uses?

If your goal is to boost your webstats to convince someone (management or whoever) that you have a popular site, then sure, why not try it?

But if your goal is to get relevant, real traffic that actually wants to visit your site and read/subscribe/buy/whatever, then use the PPC engines that real people use- Yahoo and Google.

Try Keyword Discovery or Wordtracker for your keyword research.

Shooting for a lower spot in the PPC can work, but sometimes it doesn't. It depends on your market, your competition, and your customers. Will they buy the first one they see? Do they like to shop around? Are your competitors not really relevant, or have difficult sites to use?

The best advice we can give is to try it and see what works. PPC is incredibly flexible and gives you immediate feedback. Do #1 for a week, then do #3 for a week, then try #6 for a week... let your results tell you the best strategy.

[FredAt]

Thank you Chris and Scottie.

[Jbrookins]

Yeah, probably the worst advice ever. (small SE's first, that is) I only suggest doing those if you have budget left over, and then very, very carefully. We did a recent test on small search engines, and aside from one particular case, the results were pretty miserable. Even that case though, would not have produced enough sales to actually be worthwhile as a singular effort.

Everything I would say about 3-5 has been said, though I would add that #1 usually isn't a very ideal place either. High traffic and conversion rate rarely keeps up. For high CPC areas, that can be problematic. Test different positions and see what you get.

[jehochman]

In fairness to the author of that book, are you, FredAt, saying that the book recommends advertising with niche directories, or unknown search engines? Niche directories can be very good. I also like some second tier search engines' PPC programs, especially Microsoft. I haven't tried Ask or Miva. Yahoo has less volume than Google, and seems to be just as expensive. Frankly, most businesses don't get all that much volume with MS and Yahoo, so looking at anything smaller probably doesn't make sense unless you have a really big budget.

[FredAt]

In fairness to the author of that book, are you, FredAt, saying that the book recommends advertising with niche directories, or unknown search engines? Niche directories can be very good. I also like some second tier search engines' PPC programs, especially Microsoft. I haven't tried Ask or Miva. Yahoo has less volume than Google, and seems to be just as expensive. Frankly, most businesses don't get all that much volume with MS and Yahoo, so looking at anything smaller probably doesn't make sense unless you have a really big budget.

I should clarify what they say. They list the "top ten" search engines with Alexa rankings etc and discuss the pros and cons for each. They then go on to talk about second-tier search engines. They suggest that starting there might be a good way for a novice to cut his/her teeth.

I am new to the SEO/PPC game. I bought one utterly useless SEO book based on one very misleading 5* review. Then I bought this Mordkovich book on PPC. It strikes me as being not too bad and they don't waffle away quite as much as most computer book authors seem to like to do.

[Jbrookins]

I should clarify what they say. They list the "top ten" search engines with Alexa rankings etc and discuss the pros and cons for each. They then go on to talk about second-tier search engines. They suggest that starting there might be a good way for a novice to cut his/her teeth.

I am new to the SEO/PPC game. I bought one utterly useless SEO book based on one very misleading 5* review. Then I bought this Mordkovich book on PPC. It strikes me as being not too bad and they don't waffle away quite as much as most computer book authors seem to like to do.

I would disagree with their assertion that it's a good way for a novice to cut their teeth. Second tier engines usually have very poor returns, high click fraud rates, poor partnerships, and less than user-friendly interfaces. It seems to me that you would only end up very frustrated and discouraged by going that route.

I would also have to wonder if there were 10 PPC engines worth talking about...

My personal suggestion is that there are lots of free resources and some really good forums out there (this being one of them). Avoid ebooks unless they come with strong suggestions by reputable individuals as most of them are complete garbage or outdated.

[Jill]

Great advice, Jeremy! (IMG:http://www.highrankings.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/goodjob.gif)

[FredAt]

Great advice, Jeremy! (IMG:http://www.highrankings.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/goodjob.gif)

You will not find me buying a book on SEO/PPC again! In the normal course of events I would never consider buying a computer book anyway - by and large they are just a rip-off industry. The honorable exception I think is O'Reilly but I don't think they have come out with a "PPC In A Nutshell" title yet.

[Jbrookins]

Great advice, Jeremy! (IMG:http://www.highrankings.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/goodjob.gif)

haha I figured you'd like that advice. (IMG:http://www.highrankings.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

[BorisMordkovich]

Dear Fred,

My name is Boris Mordkovich and I'm one of the co-authors of the book that you have referred to.

I wanted to introduce myself and thank everybody for the comments you have posted regarding the book.

Our first edition was published almost 2 years ago, so some of the things we wrote about have changed and are now a bit outdated.

However, I do want to let you know that we are currently finishing up the 2nd edition of the book that will come out in early 2007 and will address all of the things that have changed since the original edition, including the part about the 2nd tier search engines.

Fred, I would like to offer you a complementary copy of the new book when it comes out. If you email or PM me with your address, I will take care of it on our end.

If there is anything else that I can clarify, please don't hesitate to ask!

Best Regards,
Boris

[Scottie]

Welcome Boris, and thanks for the offer! (IMG:http://www.highrankings.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/hi.gif)

[FredAt]

Thank you for the offer Boris - I have sent you a message with the information you requested.

Given that I made my comments regarding this book in a public forum I feel it is ony appropriate that I clarify what I said here too. I have never been a great fan of computer books - I think they are a waste of resources and of space. If I sought to buy books on PPC & SEO it was to reduce the amount of time I spend in front of a computer - a desire I think many on this forum will empathize with.

I have talked of two different books on this forum. The first one(Search Engine Optimization, An Hour a Day by Grappone & Couzin) I would not recommend to my worst enemy. The Mordkovich book on PPC on the other hand is quite readable and I did pick up some useful information there. The authors tend not to waffle and pad the book out to justify a big price - rare in the computer book business.

Based my - limited - understanding of SEO and PPC issues I am inclined to conclude that neither are especially difficult, though there are numerous pitfalls and many subtleties to be understood. A good dose of common sense, a passion for the product/service one is trying to market, a great deal of honesty are all that are required. The one additional ingredient that would help - a good book that succinctly outlines some of the more common mistakes and discusses the more frequently encountered problems.

I hope that in the new edition they will deliver something similar to the no-nonsense approach of O'Reilly books that I like so much.

[jehochman]

FredAt, have you tried the online training offered by the search engines? Those programs are well worth the time.

Google: http://www.google.com/adwords/learningcenter/ (Free)
Yahoo: https://approval.myaffiliateprogram.com/amb...ador_signup.asp ($50)