You've Gotta Be Kidding Me!, Did you see this? Options

[copywriter]

I was rather shocked to see an article by Mike Banks Valentine appear in my inbox the other week. I didn't agree with what he said, but had no way to express my opinion. (No reply address and no contact email on his site.)

Well, low and behold, just last week his comments appear in the i-Copywriting newsletter. NOW I had a way to disagree... and I'm not the only one.

His comments about SEO copywriters provoked a word or two from our illustrious leader, Jill.

I don't have the whole article anymore, but you'll get the gist of what's going on from mine and Jill's comments below.

Hi Nick and all...
         
          I usually agree with Mike Banks Valentine, and in
          fact he has written a few guest articles for my
          newsletter.  However, I have to strongly disagree
          with some of the points he made in the last issue of
          I-Copywriting.
         
          Mike said:
         
          >> SEO's take existing web copy and
          massage it to make the text and page structure
          crawler friendly so that those search engine spiders
          will recognize what a given page is about. The goal
          is to gain top rankings in the search engines for
          competitive keyword phrases targeted by our clients.
         
          Those clients could often benefit from a seasoned
          professional writer RE-writing their web pages as
          well, but only if they were willing to FOREGO high
          search engine rankings. <<
         
          Sorry, Mike, but you've got to be kidding?
          There's an entire new field created just for
          this purpose called SEO Copywriting (which I like to
          flatter myself into thinking I had a little hand in
          creating!).  The whole idea is to write for the
          search engines AND the site visitors.  There's
          absolutely no reason to forego high rankings in
          exchange for professional copywriting. The thought of
          that is simply ludicrous to me.
         
          Yes, it's true that the typical SEOs job is to
          edit existing copy so that it utilizes the keyword
          phrases. In fact, that's my specialty, and
          it's what my Nitty-gritty report is based on.
          BUT...and this is a huge but...it's not always
          possible to edit existing copy in a way that will
          make sense for the search engines and the site's
          users.
         
          In those cases, it's imperative that the SEO put
          away their ego to step down and let the professional
          copywriters take over.  I firmly believe that any
          good professional copywriter worth their salt can
          easily be trained in SEO copywriting.  In fact, it
          takes them generally about 2 or 3 pages to understand
          what they need to do, if they have the benefit of a
          decent SEO teaching them.
         
          SEOs should stay away from trying to write copy, just
          as copywriters should stay away from thinking they
          are SEOs just because they know how to write for the
          search engines.  Both need to work together, not
          separately.
         
          IMO, any SEO who does not have a professional
          copywriter on staff or contracted out, is doing a
          huge disservice to their clients because there's
          no sense in getting high rankings if your site's
          copy sounds like it was written by an SEO.  It will
          be a million times harder to make a sale in under
          those circumstances.  Let's face it, the best
          SEOs are somewhat technically inclined, and the best
          copywriters are generally creatively inclined.
          Together, they make a killer optimization team.
                   
          Best,
         
          Jill Whalen
         
         
         
          Dear Nick,
          
          In response to Mike Banks Valentine's comments
          regarding SEO copywriting.  Mike said:
          
          >> I guarantee that you, as a professional
          writer, would not want to see a keyword phrase
          repeated six or seven times on a page of 600 words.
          I'll wager that you would even recommend
          reducing that page to 250 words or less to gain
          clarity and focus, that you'd vary your words to
          avoid repetition, that you'd re-write headlines
          to emphasize the sizzle rather than the steak, that
          you would opt for simple metaphor rather than
          industry buzzword.
         
          BUT every one of those moves would destroy search
          engine position for that client. He now has a
          beautifully written page that nobody will ever find
          by doing a search at Google. Congratulations on your
          stellar written work - which is now invisible to the
          search engines! <<
         
          Mike is wrong.   This is exactly what I do.  As a
          professional SEO copywriter, I DO want to see the
          keyword phrases repeated.  I do want longer copy on
          the page to increase saturation.  I don't
          recommend reducing the copy to 250 words.
          
          A professional SEO copywriter is trained to create
          copy that is the happy solution that Mike says he
          can't find.  We have a talent to be able to
          create the sizzle without burning the steak.  Our
          profession dictates that we create copy that
          impresses both the visitor and the search engines.
          
          So Mike, while I understand your comments *if*
          written to copywriters, I just wanted you to take
          heart!  There are SEO copywriters who provide the
          very things you believe are missing. 
          
          Karon Thackston
         

What do you think?

[Here's the link toI-Copywriting]

This post has been edited by Jill: Nov 11 2003, 09:22 PM

[Drew-z]

I think Mike has a myopic one dimensional view of SEO that belittles the intelegence, quality and future of SE leaders such as Google. He is in essence arguing Google has it all wrong and is doomed. (IMG:http://www.highrankings.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/drunk.gif)

The reality is Google is way ahead of his obsolete arguement. He implies two things that untrained SEO's would be dupped into believing:

1. that on page factors outweight off page factors. The reality is quite to the contrary as evidenced by sites without a single keyword on the page are at the top of the most competitive ranking due to link reputation.

2. that SE's reward excessive use of keywords or stuffing as he seems to imply.

Okay, i now have a third

3. that uses don't appreciate a page that is focused on the keyword they already told you they wanted to know about (I think this was mentioned in the reply) . And of course I want to see these words in context - after all i am friggin skimming, not reading a discertation. (And I am not supposed to start a sentence with And, right?)

This post has been edited by Drew-z: Nov 11 2003, 08:26 PM

[Scottie]

Well, I can certainly see where he could get that impression. There are some rotten sites out there that rank well but read horribly.

But it goes back to my view that you can't do good SEO work without a big picture view of conversions and marketing. You don't have to be a great copywriter but it pays to work with one!

[Jill]

I understand where he gets the view from too...

It's from the 85% of SEOs who write their own copy. Or have their clients write it.

WHEN WILL THEY EVER LEARN?????

Actually it is getting better. Some are learning. But SEOs are a cheap lot. They don't think they need to pay a copywriter. Dumb, dumb, dumb!

[cline]

Stuff like this just gets so polarized it's ridiculous. Of course there's a dynamic tension between SEO and good copywriting. Of course there are trade-offs. Of course some people can do one and not the other -- and -- there are some people can do both.

If there are no conversions, who cares how much traffic you can get (BTW, this situation is called "spamming"). If there are no visitors, who cares how compelling the copy is?

I've always thought that the term "search engine optimization" was a nice one. It's not "search engine maximization" -- getting all the SE traffic you can. It's about making trade-offs that produce the optimal results for the business.

[compar]

I've always thought that the term "search engine optimization" was a nice one. It's not "search engine maximization" -- getting all the SE traffic you can. It's about making trade-offs that produce the optimal results for the business.

I like that. I wish I had said it. In fact it is so good I may say it in the future.

But of course, optimization should not necessarily mean maximum traffic. It should mean the compromise and balance of factors that result in the greatest commercial return from the page.

If the page is not commercial in nature then it should ideally mean the greatest utility to people seeking that information.

I like that, optimum benefit. (IMG:http://www.highrankings.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/appl.gif)

[Ron Carnell]

It's from the 85% of SEOs who write their own copy. Or have their clients write it.

And some of us are so foolish as to actually let our visitors write the copy!

Oh, uh, maybe I shouldn't mention that in a forum? (IMG:http://www.highrankings.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Jill]

LOL Ron...took me a few seconds to get that. (IMG:http://www.highrankings.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/appl.gif)

[Haystack]

Copywriting improves sales? Maybe we should tell the people who run free online casinos or mlm companies selling prescription drugs online. They seem to lean toward search engine optimized content rather than professional copywriting services.

That paragraph was loosely optimized for a series of unrelated high search volume terms. Expect to see a spike in traffic once this gets indexed. (IMG:http://www.highrankings.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

[compar]

LOL Ron...took me a few seconds to get that. (IMG:http://www.highrankings.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/appl.gif)

And I still don't get it. Can you explain please?

[dragonlady7]

I get that newsletter, and was quite interested to see your responses.
And, glad.
(IMG:http://www.highrankings.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
I guess I'm spoiled by having entered the SEO world largely through your writings, Jill, and those with whom you agree (by publishing!)-- recently branching out into widely unrelated newsletters has brought me quite a bit of confusion as I discover that no, the whole SEO world doesn't think the way you do! (IMG:http://www.highrankings.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
I like your school of thought best. Things Just Make Sense. :yay:

[Jill]

Thanks, DL! I couldn't agree more.

And Compar...c'mon, read Ron's post again and think about it some more. You'll get it, i know you will. Afterall, remember what I said the other day...you're not stupid! (IMG:http://www.highrankings.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Jill

[OldWelshGuy]

And I still don't get it. Can you explain please?

Compar, if you visit the forum enough times then i am sure you will work out the meaning (IMG:http://www.highrankings.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/thumbup1.gif)

[powerofeyes]

Hello Jill,
I think you should remember this writings it was an extract from your newsletter written I think way back in 2001.
Here it goes.

There have been plenty of companies over the years that were smart enough to hire me when my prices were low, and they got one heck of an excellent deal! I used to charge very little for my services because to me it was just *fun* and I was still learning. But some larger companies were scared off by my low prices and figured that I must not be good. Well, ha ha to them, because they lost out on getting top ten rankings for a very low price. Now those same companies would be thrilled to use my services simply because I charge big bucks. My rankings are the same, but the prices are high. Go figure.

You have said it was just fun and you were learning. My question during these times when you were too young into SEO did you hire a copywriter to do content writing for you or you wrote the contents or the clients wrote it for you. Just a eager a question because i just completed 25 sites and I am relatively new to SEO so this answer will help me a lot,

And compar, Ron means to say he sometimes tells his clients to write copies their sites.
thanks,
VIJAY,

This post has been edited by powerofeyes: Nov 12 2003, 05:51 AM

[OldWelshGuy]

Maybe my post was too cryptic, what Ron was saying re:- some people are mad enough to allow their visitors to write their copy is that this is Jills website, and we write the copy , (I Think ) maybe it is me who is not on the ball, but then again I am old bald and stupid by admission (IMG:http://www.highrankings.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)