Jump to content

  • Log in with Facebook Log in with Twitter Log In with Google      Sign In   
  • Create Account

Subscribe to HRA Now!

 



Are you a Google Analytics enthusiast?

Share and download Custom Google Analytics Reports, dashboards and advanced segments--for FREE! 

 



 

 www.CustomReportSharing.com 

From the folks who brought you High Rankings!


Sponsored Content

 

 
 

Photo
- - - - -

Content Is Not King Anymore?


  • Please log in to reply
37 replies to this topic

#16 qwerty

qwerty

    HR 10

  • Moderator
  • 8,287 posts
  • Location:Somerville, MA

Posted 02 October 2004 - 01:13 PM

QUOTE
I bet I could get a blank HTML page ranked in the top ten for a key word use strictly off site optimization.

I don't doubt that you could. The problem I see with that perspective is that it's dependent on the idea that rankings and traffic are the goal of the site, and that's not the way I see it.

Of course you want to rank well, and you want people to come to your site. Once they show up, don't you want to take things the next step, to get them to buy from you, subscribe to your newsletter, or contact you for further information? That's not going to happen without content.

If you want to say that that's the job of the marketing people, fine. We'll have to agree to disagree. I see my work's goal to be a successful site, not just one that ranks well.

#17 Jill

Jill

    High Rankings Advisor

  • Admin
  • 32,311 posts

Posted 02 October 2004 - 01:48 PM

QUOTE(LinkAdage @ Oct 2 2004, 02:06 PM)
Content used to be king, now it is a tired cliché. Off site optimization is king now. I bet I could get a blank HTML page ranked in the top ten for a key word use strictly off site optimization.

But the page that had BOTH would outrank your blank page every time.

#18 redbird

redbird

    HR 2

  • Active Members
  • PipPip
  • 44 posts

Posted 02 October 2004 - 05:04 PM

QUOTE(Jill @ Oct 2 2004, 01:48 PM)
But the page that had BOTH would outrank your blank page every time.

And I have a pretty good idea which one would close the sale. wink.gif

I don't disagree LinkAdage - buy up enough PR and you'll be riding high for a while.

Question is, even when you disregard a 100% link build SEO strategy as short term, and the fact that it's borderline SE manipulation, what good would it do for a poor content site?

Say I own a brick-and-mortar business selling Widget Toes.

I slam all the local papers with full page, full color ads. Buy up all the local TV advertising. I've got the balloons and the blimp going, I've got the Blues Brothers with the loud speaker - the works.

Folks begin arriving at the store.

They see I have a very poor selection of Widget Toes. Many items are out of stock, on backorder. My sales staff has absolutely no idea what Widget Toes are good for, what varieties are available, etc. The store layout is a mess - completely unorganized.

Are my visitors (can't call 'em customers, as I doubt many will actually buy) going to return anytime soon? For that matter, aren't they gonna be a wee bit ticked that I duped 'em into taking the time in visiting my store?

Sure, I'd be able to brag that I had one of the biggest grand openings ever. Could tell everyone how I filled the parking lots, bottlenecked traffic, etc.

Ask me how much money I made, and I'd show you an empty wallet.

Businesses don't survive on bragging rights or ego, like having top placement built on link builds. They survive by earning a profit - giving their site visitors what they're looking for.

Draw a line between SEO and marketing if you want - they're one and the same, imo.

Jeff Bogumil

#19 mcanerin

mcanerin

    HR 7

  • Active Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,242 posts
  • Location:Calgary, Alberta, Canada

Posted 02 October 2004 - 06:31 PM

The only time I'd use a linking only strategy is if there actually WAS content but Google could not see it (A Flash only site comes to mind).

Otherwise, it's just a numbers game and the deck is stacked against you.

Why? Because anytime you buy a link, so can I. It comes down to whoever has the deepest pockets and the biggest link farm (which eventually goes back to deep pockets again). Mexican standoff, and Google controls the bullets.

But at the end of the day, basing your whole strategy on links is short term thinking - it's the new keyword stuffing. It doesn't add value to the site, and although it's working today it doesn't mean it will work tomorrow. All those people stuffing keywords into every nook and cranny back in '97 would have told you flat out that there was no way ever that a search engine could beat their keyword stuffing algos and systems. Then along came link analysis lol.gif

The problem is that links seem to be the new bandwagon. Although not new, there is a very new emphasis on links to the exclusion of content. Whenever I hear someone talking about links being "king" (whatever that actually means) the underlying tone is that content is dead.

And that's just plain wrong.

I saw this a lot in university - particularly with the young crowd who came straight out of high school and thought they were REALLY smart because they got accepted into University. And then (horrors!) they learned stuff in university that they did not know in high school, and felt that this secret knowledge was really the key to it all. Right after that they typically became rabid pro- or anti- whatever the focus of the day was (programming models, political theories, social theories, etc).

The insidious part of the problem was that they are often NOT wrong, but rather so focused on one thing that they fail to realize that the world is a complicated place, and there is NEVER a single cause for anything substantial or complicated - no matter how attractive the theory is or how influential and well spoken the main proponents are.

The issue isn't right or wrong, the issue is actually understanding interactions.

Let me illustrate in an SEO environment.

The first "Content is King" proponents were spammers. Normal people put up sites, talked about their subject, and linked to and from related sites without much regard for search engines. Spammers figured out that the SE rankings were related to content and, ignoring links, focussed on keyword stuffing. metatag stuffing, cloaking, and so forth. No doubt they thought they were very clever for figuring this out, to the detriment of the web in general.

No doubt many justified their actions by saying they were "just doing what their client wanted" (it's your actions, not your clients - be an adult and admit it - it has nothing to do with client knowledge or permission) or that "everyone was doing it" or that it was necessary to remain competitive or any of the dozens of other reasons they chose (anything sounding familiar here?)

Then along came link analysis and all these people who had put all their eggs in one basket turned into crybabies. The smarter spammers learned all about links and started generating link farms.

The rest of us went on our merry way, since nothing really changed except some spammers lost their jobs for a while and the SERPs got better.

Now, recently, the "links are king" crowd are going:

"whaaa! sandbox! - my bulk link buying isn't working"

and

"omg! the toolbar hasn't been updated - how am I gonna buy links now? What if that PR 7 is really a PR 2?"

and

"Hey! those 30,000 footer links I have, and all my forum post sigs, don't count anymore!"

and

"I'm doing great on Google but Yahoo and MSN (or the reverse) don't like me! Why not?"

How come the only people saying these things are those who are on the links are king and content is dead bandwagon? and how come they haven't taken the hint? Personally, I'd consider having my site drop like a rock and staying dropped as a hint that maybe whatever I was doing before, I should probably stop.

The first thing you do when you find yourself in a hole is PUT DOWN THE SHOVEL! Don't start digging harder. Don't start asking people if you need a new shovel. Don't start a thread on proper shoveling technique. Put down the shovel, take a step back, and look at the big picture.

Here is a hint:

Make the best website you can (content)
Let as many people as possible know about it (links)

And you will be successful. I know, it sounds crazy. Everyone should try it sometime, just for laughs. You'd be surprised.

soapbox.gif

Ian

#20 chrishirst

chrishirst

    A not so moderate moderator.

  • Moderator
  • 5,879 posts
  • Location:Blackpool UK

Posted 03 October 2004 - 03:22 AM

appl.gif to Jeff and Ian

maybe even some of the participants in the sandbox thread will get the right idea.

#21 Diniz

Diniz

    HR 3

  • Active Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 105 posts
  • Location:All over the shop

Posted 04 October 2004 - 06:35 AM

I think thats unfair since you can have great content and links and still get sandboxed.

QUOTE
Let as many people as possible know about it (links)


mcanerin, your not advocating the manipulation of the serps are you? smartass.gif


cheers,
D

#22 OldWelshGuy

OldWelshGuy

    Work is Fun

  • Moderator
  • 4,713 posts
  • Location:Neath, South Wales, UK

Posted 04 October 2004 - 06:51 AM

I refuse to allow myself to drag this topic into an 'are links spam' debate tongue.gif

The simple fact is that had the words miserable failure appeared anywhere in the body copy, then the GWB bio page would have needed a lot less links to get to #1. had the word miserable or failure been in the title, then less links again. had the title of the page been GWB, miserable failure ? Then it might well have got there without links, but not stayed there as pages popped up on various news sites that were seen as more authoritive, and so would have appeared higher than it.

All of this comes back to what we have said all along. in a race, a two legged man might not be able to run as fast as the world champion one legged man can hop. But if you break on leg on each of them, the two legged man can still hop. Google and anyone who cares about relevance, will not allow one legged hoppers to win races indefinitely.

#23 Jill

Jill

    High Rankings Advisor

  • Admin
  • 32,311 posts

Posted 04 October 2004 - 07:49 AM

QUOTE(OWG)
Google and anyone who cares about relevance, will not allow one legged hoppers to win races indefinitely.


lol.gif Word to live by! smile.gif

#24 mcanerin

mcanerin

    HR 7

  • Active Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,242 posts
  • Location:Calgary, Alberta, Canada

Posted 04 October 2004 - 12:09 PM

QUOTE
mcanerin, your not advocating the manipulation of the serps are you?


I sure am! As a matter of fact, I do it for a living! biggrin.gif

Every single time you edit a page, put up a new site, get a link or add content that a search engine knows (or learns) about is some form of SERP manipulation.

Google ASSUMES it's SERPs will change - otherwise they'd be a directory and not take any more listings. Their whole algo is based on trying to figure out positive manipulation from negative. Yes, they are the one making that decision, not anyone else.

There is changing the visible web (manipulating SERPs) the approved way, and doing it the unapproved way. Each SE chooses what they consider "approved" or not. If someone doesn't like it, they can opt out - no single SE controls more than 35% or the market anymore, so it's not a monopoly.

I would suggest that if Google has done something that interferes with a particular way a person manipulates the SERPs, then I'd take that as a hint that it's not an accepted practice anymore, hmmmm?

Adapt or die. Been a rule for a long time now (4.7 million years for humans, anyway smile.gif )

Cheers,

Ian

#25 swan

swan

    HR 2

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 12 posts

Posted 04 October 2004 - 07:06 PM

"Sorry if I was a little vague. I was referring to newspaper jargon - the "byline" being the writer or reporter credit."

Redbird... it twas i thinking "one fry short of a happy meal"... must have been friday. The light bulb went off soon after i made the post, but i do very much appreciate your in dept explaination. It's people like you that make the forums worth while.

As for the post immediately below yours...

"Content used to be king, now it is a tired cliché. Off site optimization is king now. I bet I could get a blank HTML page ranked in the top ten for a key word use strictly off site optimization. "

I fail to see the point, anyone that understands even the basics of seo, knows the importance of "off page" optimization. But a blank HTML page in the top 10... I mean really, u'r point is made but what would be the point, and what a waste of perfectly good back links and opo. And I'd like to see you do it with something even remotely competitive.

Anyway, I don't know what you sell, but most of the stuff we deal with people want content first.... shopping carts and order forms second!

And what about the future.... i sure wouldn't wanna be having to go back a year or so from now and add content to all the websites that have gone through this place... lol

Please, no offense intended...

Swan... hmm.gif

#26 swan

swan

    HR 2

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 12 posts

Posted 04 October 2004 - 07:12 PM

Hey mcanerin...

I couldn't agree more, at least with most of it... lol


Swan... good post!

#27 redbird

redbird

    HR 2

  • Active Members
  • PipPip
  • 44 posts

Posted 05 October 2004 - 09:24 AM

QUOTE(swan @ Oct 4 2004, 07:06 PM)
Redbird... it twas i thinking "one fry short of a happy meal"... must have been friday. The light bulb went off soon after i made the post, but i do very much appreciate your in dept explaination. It's people like you that make the forums worth while.

Thank you kindly. smile.gif

QUOTE
Make the best website you can (content)
Let as many people as possible know about it (links)


Web Marketing perfectly summarized. Great post Ian!

QUOTE
Google and anyone who cares about relevance, will not allow one legged hoppers to win races indefinitely.


I'll have to remember that one OWG. smile.gif

QUOTE
Adapt or die. Been a rule for a long time now (4.7 million years for humans, anyway  )


Somewhere in this, there's an analogy between Google algo updates and mass extinction events. wink.gif

Jeff Bogumil

#28 lyn

lyn

    HR 6

  • Active Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 940 posts
  • Location:London, Ontario

Posted 05 October 2004 - 01:16 PM

QUOTE(witchhead @ Oct 1 2004, 09:04 AM)
Some sites just seem to rank for no apparent reason. No content, no backlinks and no following of any decent seo techniques known to me.

I realise that this thread has gone to soe length on how better content with better links will always win out but...

I have to agree with your statement. I have in mind one site that persists in ranking near the top of page one for one of my primary keyword phrases, but has virtually no content whatsoever. It's essentially an abandoned MSN group that does have elements of the phrase in its title, but the site was never developed into anything at all. I am positive that it has no significant backlinks and I am aware of several other sites with lots of info and a few links that rank much lower.

I don't worry too much about it because my site is still on top smartass.gif but it makes me nuts when I try to think of SEO as a rational science.

L.

#29 swan

swan

    HR 2

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 12 posts

Posted 06 October 2004 - 02:13 PM

I gave up on the "rational science" thing awhile back, especially when u'r talking about Google serps... lol

Swan... blackbat.gif

#30 netrafic

netrafic

    HR 1

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 1 posts

Posted 08 October 2004 - 12:50 PM

This thread was funny to read. I'd spend more time participating here but ive got 40 clients to keep happy.

This discussion is kinda like trying to defend the Bush presidency.

Why doesnt someone come out and say, "Googles results have been crap for some time now".
there i said it

they have been more interested in getting their IPO off the ground and developing adwords and adsense and every other adthing than making their serps better. I see junque all the time, everywhere on that engine. the relevance of their results is piss poor. period.

bye




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users