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Use Of Layers - Big No No?


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128 replies to this topic

#106 peter_d

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Posted 22 September 2003 - 08:20 PM

The most usable thing is most usable by the most people


What is the most widely spoken language? A website written in Mandarin isn't that useful to an English speaking audience.

The intended audience is key to usability.

I said it's fine to make a HTML page completely unusable to some visitors, containing no text and no links. That's your choice. Just don't then be surprised if that page isn't indexed by a text search engine. That's the search engine's choice.


Search engine compliance does not automaticly result in usability. Lack of search engine compliance does automaticly render a site unusable.

Ni hao :embarrassed:

Edited by peter_d, 22 September 2003 - 08:29 PM.


#107 compar

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Posted 22 September 2003 - 08:32 PM

Thanks.

So, do you know what Ethical SEO is now?  :embarrassed:

No such thing. SEO has nothing to do with ethics. Or conversely ethics has nothing to do with SEO.

You are either a good plumber or a bad plumber. You either plumb to the building codes or you don't but I don't think plumbing is ethical. To the same degree SEO isn't ethical.

But we probably will never agree on that one either.

You have an uncanny ability reverse everybody's arguments. Has anybody ever persuaded you that maybe they have a point?

#108 Jill

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Posted 22 September 2003 - 09:37 PM

I count some of the world's best SEOs as friends. Some of them would also make excellent usability consultants. Excellent business managers. Excellent pool cleaners. Doesn't mean I'd hire them to clean my pool. They could, but I'd worry that they wouldn't be totally focused on the task and would be happier elsewhere.


If you're asking me to clean your pool, you can just fuggetaboutit! ;)

But actually, I'm pretty sure that many very good SEOs know some damn good usability experts and may even contract with them to work on their projects.

SEO (good SEO) is not always just about rankings any more. Maybe that's not SEO in the true sense of the acronymn, but it does appear that SEOs or SEMs or whatever they're called now are moving more in the direction of being Website consultants, in general.

Certainly, SEO should never be done in a vacuum, which is the way the spammers of yore did it.

Jill

#109 qwerty

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Posted 22 September 2003 - 10:23 PM

Well I think that is my point. We write titles because that is what shows up in the SERP.


I know I'm backtracking a bit, but I typed in my last post, left for a movie, and on the walk to the theatre I thought of a better example of why the title tag is important to the user. So bear with me while I rehash this.

Let's say you've got a number of windows open on your pc, and maybe four of them are browser windows. (We're assuming for the sake of this example that you use a browser that displays multiple pages by creating multiple instances of its application rather than tabs.)

You need access to one of those web pages, but some of them are behind other windows and some of them have been minimized. So you move your mouse down to your task bar. Looking at the little clickable rectangles down there, which of the following arrays of documents would you rather see:
1)"New Page 1" "New Page 1" "" "Unititled Document" or
2)"Newton's Third Law" "Discount Books" "Buy Flowers Online" "The Happy Water Buffalo"

#110 Alan Perkins

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Posted 23 September 2003 - 01:56 AM

What is the most widely spoken language? A website written in Mandarin isn't that useful to an English speaking audience.

You are mixing up structure and content.

You linked to a HTML page and described it as usable. It wasn't.

The Flash movie it contained may have been usable for all people whose browsers supported Flash. But the HTML page you linked to was not usable for all people whose browsers supported HTML.

The intended audience is key to usability.

Agreed - a key, anyway.

Search engine compliance does not automaticly result in usability. Lack of search engine compliance does automaticly render a site unusable.

Agreed again.

I'm really talking about Ethical SEO, not compliant SEO. And accessibility as a component of usability.

In terms of Ethical SEO and accessibility, I would say that Ethical SEO usually makes a site more accessible than it was before, and many forms of search engine spam make a site less accessible than it was before (since many forms of spam mis-use accessibility features to the detriment of those visitors who rely upon them, e.g. stuffing keywords into ALT attributes).

You have an uncanny ability reverse everybody's arguments. Has anybody ever persuaded you that maybe they have a point?

Yes.

#111 compar

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Posted 23 September 2003 - 02:24 AM

Let's say you've got a number of windows open on your pc, and maybe four of them are browser windows. (We're assuming for the sake of this example that you use a browser that displays multiple pages by creating multiple instances of its application rather than tabs.)

You need access to one of those web pages, but some of them are behind other windows and some of them have been minimized. So you move your mouse down to your task bar. Looking at the little clickable rectangles down there, which of the following arrays of documents would you rather see:
1)"New Page 1" "New Page 1" "" "Unititled Document" or
2)"Newton's Third Law" "Discount Books" "Buy Flowers Online" "The Happy Water Buffalo"

Yes you are exactly correct. In fact it works that way even with the tabs in Netscape. A truncated copy of the title is on each tab.

I knew the title argument wasn't perfect. If you remember I said that once someone was on the page the title did nothing to make that specific page more user friendly. But remember the old titles that use simply say "Welcome to my company" of 'My company home page". They would have worked equally as well in your "find the window" example. But when was the last time you wrote one of these?

I know. I know. You just want to help people find the window by making the truncated version of the title more meaningful. It has nothing to do with influencing the SEs.

BTW which movie did you see. And I'm flattered even on the way to a movie you're still wrestling with ways to refute me. Wow! That's impressive ;)

<Later addition> I just glanced at the tabs I have open in Netscape. Do you know what one of the tabs -- title of the page-- is? "Google AdSense - Home". Now should we all write Goggle and tell them how user unfriendly their title tag is? Why do you think they didn't try to make this site more user friendly and write something like "Make Money From Your Web Site With Content Based PPC Ads - AdSense by Google". Is it possible that they aren't worried about being ranked and they don't think titles stuffed with keyword phrases add anything to the value of a web site?

#112 Alan Perkins

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Posted 23 September 2003 - 03:39 AM

I was answering your question. Yes, I have been persuaded by other people that they have a point. In this case, though, I don't see you persuading me that ethics don't come into the choices we make as SEOs, and likewise I don't see me persuading you that they do.

I think this thread has run its course, both as "Use of layers - big no no?" and "What is Compliant SEO and What is Ethical SEO".

#113 franckey

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Posted 08 October 2003 - 10:36 AM

If the content is different than the content in the Flash, it is probably considered spam by most search engines.

But I think it is not possible, because SE can not read Flash (can they?), so they are not able to detect differences.

#114 qwerty

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Posted 08 October 2003 - 10:38 AM

Even if the search engine doesn't see the difference, anyone who looks at your source code will. They may report you to the search engines.

#115 Jill

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Posted 08 October 2003 - 10:43 AM

If the content is different than the content in the Flash, it is probably considered spam by most search engines.

But I think it is not possible, because SE can not read Flash (can they?), so they are not able to detect differences.

Whether the search engine can detect something is not what makes it spam.

There are hundreds of spam techniques that the search engines can't automatically detect. If you're comfortable spamming the engines, then go for it.

Jill

#116 SEO-Richard

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Posted 14 October 2003 - 09:23 PM

<SEO (good SEO) is not always just about rankings any more. Maybe that's not SEO in the true sense of the acronymn, but it does appear that SEOs or SEMs or whatever they're called now are moving more in the direction of being Website consultants, in general.

Certainly, SEO should never be done in a vacuum, which is the way the spammers of yore did it.>


Well, as you can see I'm a new user of this forum. I've been wandering around a bit, trying out different places.

I was thinking about this issue on another fourm, where it didn't go down too well.

My take on it is that we have to think as a human would rather than as a SE would nowadays (sorry,I'm getting tired). In the old days stuffing keywords into the Keyword tag was enough, but as SE's get more sophisticated they're going to approach human levels of 'perception'. (I know, I know - I am getting tired)

My interest in this was aroused by the fact that the first link in my navigation bar seemed to get twice as much traffic as the second link. I guessed that it was becasue to a SE it was more important, since to a human it's more important. It might not be - but it set me thinking. I started wondering how SEs are going to perceive things in future.

I can see a day when TITLE tags are pretty meaningless, and when Page Rank (I optimise my site for Google) is much less imprtant.

Here's my blue-sky thinking - creativity doesn't go down too well in forums usually because it's seen as 'weird':

Different people think in different ways - a logical mind will percieve differently from a 'creative' mind. So a logical mind would best be served with search results that are tightly related, perhaps.

A creative mind might be served best with results that are more diverse.

Someone who doesn't know what they want could be served with even more diverse results.

How? An analysis of the search terms used. Maybe an online 'test' that indicates the particular mind of the searcher - stored as a cookie.

What's this got to do with usability etc.? This sort of thinking stretches the boundaries. Now when I optimise my site, thinking in terms of long term optimisation, stuff like TITLES etc. seems pretty lame. TITLES work - for the moment. But long term I need to be looking at other stuff. Simple concepts, like synonyms and antonyms - they'll be more relevant - theming for the individual page, if you like. Stuff like DIV tags being used to present your text ahead of the nav bar to the search engine - the SE s will be able to work that out, and though they might not call it spam, they'll know it's not the page the user sees. Navigation - if page rank goes down in importance ( and it's not THAT important as it is) will traditional web-linking , usability, being able to hop around from a to b or c, indicate a site that the USER will appreciate, therefore gain more importance?

To me, SEO is becoming an overview of the whole experience. There are so many factors tied in to it. High rankings, fine - but for which type of surfers? People who're going to skip merrily through, or people who WANT your site? And when you've got your target audience reading about your site in the SERP, are they interested enough to 'come on down'? Get them to your site, and does the page they've visited grab them enough to make them want to continue?

All that is part of the SEO job, I think. Which is far more than simple rankings.

And yes, I'm setting up on my own as a SEO as it interests me.

Hope I haven't blown my chance of returning to these forums with my head held up high

:-)

Richard

#117 Jill

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Posted 14 October 2003 - 10:20 PM

Welcome, Richard! :thumbup:

Not sure what you think you may have said to upset anyone! All views are welcome, and you've actually posted a view that many of us share.

The thing is, we are optimizing for today's engines. So, yes, although we have to always think about long-term strategies that will help our sites rank highly not just for now, but for the future, I wouldn't suggest we give up our Title tags just yet! :lol:

Jill

#118 SEO-Richard

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Posted 15 October 2003 - 03:59 PM

Yes, you're right. Thanks for the welcome, Jill. I WAS very tired.

Still, I like to look ahead. I can remember when doorways were all the rage -- and I thought, Woh, one day that might be spam.

A year later, it was.

Now no one 'does' doorways - no one who doesn't want to be caught out for spamming, anyway.

Ultimately, a good solid site that contains enough of every permutation of what might possibly achieve good SERPS would be my aim. Just optimising for today's fashions wouldn't be. So when TITLE wanes in importance, a site with good solid content and lots of incoming - and outgoing - links should still, in an ideal world, be 'up there.'

Lovely forums, by the way.

#119 qwerty

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Posted 15 October 2003 - 04:11 PM

I agree about solid content and links, but I can't equate the recognition of the importance of the title tag (or any tag) with the use of doorway pages. I don't think that's going to go away until pages on the net stop being structured that way.

The title tag is there to describe the page. So if the page is about a company that sells replacement parts for pipe organs, that's what the title ought to say.

#120 Jill

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Posted 15 October 2003 - 04:15 PM

Unfortunately, there are still plenty of companies who still use doorway pages. Only they have fancy new names for them. :)

Jill




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