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Guidelines For Newbie Plz!


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14 replies to this topic

#1 Anna

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Posted 03 September 2003 - 11:03 AM

Hi All!

My first post and I apologise in advance if the following has already been covered in other threads...

Can anybody provide an answer to the following (or point me in the right direction plz):

Title in META tags
  • What's the ideal number of characters one should use?
  • How many keywords one should include in the <title>?
Keywords in META tags
  • What's the ideal number of keywords one should use in any given page?
  • How should one separate each keyword (comma + space, comma no space, space only)?
  • How many times one should repeat a keyword? What's the max or recommended amount of times?
Description in META tags
  • What's the ideal number of characters one should use?
  • How many keywords one should include in the description?
Is there any particular order for the META tags to be placed within the <HEAD>, ie: title first, copyright & robot tags after, or does it not matter?

I would appreciate any help on this.

TIA! :cake:

Anna

#2 Jill

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Posted 03 September 2003 - 11:16 AM

Welcome, Anna! :cake:

You're not gonna like this answer, but there is no optimal number of characters and words for any of those things.

SEO is more of an art than a science, and you simply have to create your tags in the way that works best for your particular site and pages.

There are some numbers on Search Engine Watch regarding the maximum words/characters you should use for some tags, but these aren't the same as what you need to use.

Jill

#3 mcanerin

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Posted 03 September 2003 - 11:23 AM

"Ideal" is a loaded word and has been the originator of a great many flames, arguements and interesting discussions on this and many other forums, mainly because it's absolute and therefore as soon as someone finds an apparent exception there is a big argument...err discussion :cake:

For your purposes (and to be honest, everyone elses as well), the ideal number of anything you have just asked about is:

One more than the site that's currently at the top of the list.

Basically - you can have absolutely horrible SEO and still be number one if the competition is worse than you. If your competition is extremely good, then you will have to up the ante and start looking for those little extras once you have done all the basic work.

Don't worry about absolutes - look at the guys ahead of you and focus on them (once you've put your own site in order as far as useability, value, etc).

Hope that helps,

Ian

#4 JamesW

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Posted 03 September 2003 - 12:03 PM

Anna,

I stand to be corrected (and probably will be!) but these are my views on the subject:

Title: Long enough to contain your keyphrases, without looking excessive (judge yourself). Should make sense, if you want people to click on it.

Keywords (in the text): As a general rule, two to three per page should be manageable.

Meta-Keywords: As far as I'm aware, the different variations have little effect. Don't repeat more than twice.

Meta-Tags: Not taken into consideration for Google. Personally, I tend to repeat my keyphrases here.

I usually go for the TITLE, KEYWORDS, DESCRIPTION being the first head tags.

I hope this provides some help. Again, I've done my best to provide positive advice that you can follow, without much information to go on. However, it's a case of how long's a piece of string..... as Jill herself appears to be saying.

Cheers,

James

#5 Anna

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Posted 03 September 2003 - 12:57 PM

Hi Guys! :P

Thank for the replies. I understand that every site is different and there are no rules cast in stone, although I was probably hoping in a solve-all answer :cake: .

I will look at Jill's link (tnx!) and hope to find an indication of "how many" I should use. My main concern is that I do not want to use too many as to be black listed because considered spam, but then again, I don't know what too many is...
I will look at the competition and see how they are doing, but that won't really give me an idea of what's the *right* practice. As we don't specialise in SEO as such, I do have very little knowledge about this field, and I may be wrong in thinking that there is just one way of doing this. Your replies indicate that this is probably the case... which I suppose that's why it's such a large area of expertise and knowledge.

Our business is that of designing and developing Web sites. My aim is to know enough so that we can lay the grounds for when (if) a SEO firm is brought in. We do not offer this service, but at the same time would not want to jeopardise their work by making avoidable errors which would be costly to put right. Does this make any sense??

Regards,

Anna :halo:

#6 Mike Grehan

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Posted 03 September 2003 - 02:05 PM

I will look at Jill's link (tnx!) and hope to find an indication of "how many" I should use. My main concern is that I do not want to use too many as to be black listed because considered spam, but then again, I don't know what too many is...

Anna,

I was just passing and I noticed your post. Now, I get asked these very same questions a lot.

I want you to think about a few things here. If you had written a book about 20th century verse called “Poems of the 20th Century”: How many characters would be required to write down the title of your book?

If you went to the library and looked at one of the record cards for a book on 20th century verse and saw the keywords: poems, poetry, verse, rhymes: How many more words would be necessary before you got the “gist” of what the book is about?

If someone wrote a piece about your book and described it as “ a book about popular poems of the 20th century”: Would you agree that sums up exactly what it is?

So the answer is not so difficult: why would you use MORE or LESS words than those which are required to make it fully understood, to both man and machine i.e. search engine, what your web pages are about?

Think about each of your web pages as being like the book. And give each page its “due” identity, so there’s no confusion in the meta data or the text on the page of what the subject matter is.

How many characters a search engine would accept in any given tag is not an indication of how many you’re actually *required* to use.

Here’s something which is more important to remember. Make it clear exactly what your page is about i.e. by having a sensible title tag which relates to the actual content on the page. And if other pages which point to you use those words in the anchor text of the link: then you have the *start* of a beautiful search engine relationship.

#7 Anna

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Posted 03 September 2003 - 02:23 PM

If you went to the library and looked at one of the record cards for a book on 20th century verse and saw the keywords: poems, poetry, verse, rhymes: How many more words would be necessary before you got the “gist” of what the book is about?

Good point!

Thanks Mike!

#8 Jill

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Posted 03 September 2003 - 03:31 PM

Umm...Deborah...not too sure about that first site you posted. They're linking out to their clients sites for no apparent reason (other than to give their client's links) and have all sorts of other things going on.

Not really a recommended SEO resource, if they use those sorts of techniques. Don't have time to check the second resource at the moment....

Jill

#9 deborah2002

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Posted 03 September 2003 - 03:39 PM

Jill, I feel like an idiot. :rolleyes:

I had pulled that one out of my favorites that had been in there for quite some time....Sorry it was a bad one.

Unfortunately in my "cleaning" process I had neglected to take out a few of the ones I had checked out earlier in the year.

Anna, Jill is right--I apologize for sending you cr@p. Next time I will be paying more attention (pardon me while I make a speedy exit to my favorites to do some "housekeeping........)

Thanks for catching it, Jill.

deb

BTW--I went ahead and deleted the post so nobody else could grab it.....sorry again....

Edited by deborah2002, 03 September 2003 - 03:47 PM.


#10 compar

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Posted 03 September 2003 - 04:05 PM

Well I might as well give you my two cents worth. I generally agree with the philosophy of everything that has been said above. But I I would like to make these additional comments.

1. I think Mike's advice as to readability and function of these tags was good, but all his examples were shorter than I would recommend for a web site.

2. Nobody has really made the point -- and you said you are a newbie -- that we hope you understand that we are all talking about 2, 3 and 4 word keyword phrases, not single keywords.

3. I like the title to tell as much about the site as possible. I usually try and get 2 keyword phrases worked in to my titles. But Google appears to truncate the title in their SERP listing at about 60 characters and IE will truncate the title at about 75 characters. So from the viewer's point of view those might be reasonable limits because anything longer isn't going to be seen anyway -- it maybe read by the SEs, but we don't know for sure.

4. For meta descriptions the practical limit seems to be something in the 250 character range. I like to try and get all my keyword phrases in and have the description be a good precis of the page. A good description can certainly be less than 250 characters but this seems to be a reasonable upper limit.

5. I believe the normal order of the tags is title, meta description and meta keywords. Althought I have seen variations on this and I don't think it is terrible important.

6. I would never repeat a keyword phrase in the meta keywords, but I would put in variations like singular and plural and possibly even different tenses.

7. According to information just posted yesterday on another thread the keyword phrases in the keyword meta tag should be separated by commas only.

Hope this helps clarify it a little bit and gives you a starting point.

#11 Anna

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Posted 04 September 2003 - 01:18 AM

Compar,

2. Nobody has really made the point -- and you said you are a newbie -- that we hope you understand that we are all talking about 2, 3 and 4 word keyword phrases, not single keywords.

Ok, I understand. Thanks for the clarification, cos I was only referring to individual keywords... duh! :D

Re points 3 to 7:
Cool, excellent info mate. Many thanks, I appreciate it. I do understand, that by no means this is all the SEO ever necessary for a site, but as I said we do not provide this service and I don't want to thread into another professional's territory, but I don't want to make it harder for somebody to do their job. Very good starting point. Cheers! :lol:

Regards

Anna

#12 Gary Bagshawe

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Posted 05 September 2003 - 03:37 AM

Hi there, I would just like to add that the proximity of the keywords in the tags you mentioned is also important, i.e. try to get them to the front. The best bit of advice has already been given and that is to make the descriptions and titles read well!! It's all well and good getting into the top of the se's for your chosen keyword phrases but then you need to make the potential visitors want to click on your link. :propeller:

#13 dzinerbear

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Posted 05 September 2003 - 09:04 AM

Title in META tags

  • What's the ideal number of characters one should use?
  • How many keywords one should include in the <title>?

Anna:

My own experience doesn't bear out what's being said here. Size definitely matters.

I used to write titles like this:
"General Motors - Red Cars - Rent, Buy, Lease Automobiles" and a couple of years ago, I used to get good rankings with those kinds of titles.

But then, I started reading that shorter was better. That if I was going after "red cars" then all of the other words in the title would dilute the importance of my primary keywords. So, I tried a new page with something like "Red Cars" ... it went to number one.

I'm definitely noticing that my shorter titled pages are doing better in Google.

Dzinerbear

#14 dzinerbear

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Posted 05 September 2003 - 09:11 AM

I forgot to mention another thing.

If I have to do longer titles, I'm finding that

"Red Cars - General Motors" ranks better than

General Motors - Red Cars" although it would still rank below a site titled

"Red Cars."

The point is: get your most important keywords as close to the beginning of the title as possible.

Dzinerbear

#15 Anna

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Posted 05 September 2003 - 09:13 AM

Thanks, Dzinerbear! :propeller:




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