9 replies to this topic

[YaSO]

There is a discussion on outbound link in some other forum; some are saying it's good and some are saying it's bad, but I am not quite convinced by either side, so I thought I should ask people in this forum, since, when it comes to SEO, people here seem to know what they are talking about and seem to know better.

Here's my question:

Does outbound link hurt or help?

Obviously not all outbound links, but some. Let's say, that the site linked to is definitively the authority site, doesn't the outbound link help to create theme/neighborhood of the page? For example, I write a review on ... Yale University. Obviously, I use keywords like "Yale" and "Yale University" in the review. Now if I link to http://www.yale.edu/, doesn't it indicate that the page is about Yale University to search engines? Doesn't it help SEO?

I hear some people are saying(and constructing websites based on) that outbound links do not help SEO at all. The problem I see here is that it seems to be defeating the whole purpose of the web, the fundamental design of the web. Consequently, it is hard for me to believe that (good and relative)outbound links do not help SEO at all.

... Doesn't outbound link help in some cases?

[seafoam]

I'm no expert, but I'm pretty sure that the answer you will get here is that if the link will help your visitors then do it. If you are only adding the link to improve your ranking, don't bother.

It may add some relevance to your page if you use appropriate anchor text, but I'm not sure that 'reverse theming' is used by any search algorithms. On the negative side you will loose a little Page Rank, but probably so little you won't notice.

Search algorithms are so complex that I doubt anyone could prove this one way or the other. And what might work for one engine may be a big blunder on another; what works today might not work tomorrow. So I won't be loosing any sleep over this.

[Jill]

People say that an outbound link is bad? That's just crazy. Unless of course you're linking to !

Jill

[mcanerin]

There are 2 aspects to getting a ranking on a search engine - relevance and authority. Relevance is based (mostly) on content (though incoming link text plays a major factor, as well) and authority is based on incoming links, for the most part (there are some issues with that, as well, but it's mostly true.)

Simplified (VERY simplified) , relevance is how the SE chooses you to join the SERP, and Authority sets where you are in the SERP.

Outbound links are CONTENT. They affect your relevance. If you have a bunch of links on your page and they all talk about flowers, then it's like having a page full of the keyword "flowers" and variations of it - all in bold or H3 type - they are not only keywords, but they are treated as important keywords.

This is how a directory is found to be relevant to a search (and google loves directories). In most directories there is very little content except the links, but that's enough to make it relevant for a search. The links to the directory then set it's position compared to other sites with the same keyword weighting.

Bottom line - you are absolutely correct - outbound links are what make the web go around. On your site, they affect relevance, on an incoming site, they affect your authority. This is why hording links is usually a bad idea. In a perfect world, if you trade a link with someone that is related to your niche then you increase your relevance and they increase your authority, and vice versa.

There are of course lots of twists and turns to this, but it does suggest some courses of action. First and foremeost, what you DON"T want to do is have a page full of random links, since they are content and you have just created a page full of random content. Keep the links on your pages in as much of a categorized list as possible (it's ok to have a few that don't fit, just like it's OK not to have every sentence to have a keyword in it) You would also be well served to have descriptions with those links, and not just the link (more content).

But if you are asking if outbound links increase PR - then no. But PR without relevance will get you nowhere - you need both. You have to be IN an area of SERP before you can move to the top of it, and links help you do that.

And you can NEVER "leak" PR for a web - all you do is pass on less PR than normal on a page with lots of links. For that one page. That's it. But now this highly relevant page is pointed at the rest of your site (via the navigation links). And that's a very good thing, much better than the minimal PR loss.

Yours,

Ian

Edited by mcanerin, 14 April 2004 - 07:13 PM.

[YaSO]

People say that an outbound link is bad? That's just crazy. Unless of course you're linking to!

I think you are absolutely right(by the way, it's some icon there ...). But there is this ... one person in some forum, sitepoint*cough* sitepoint*cough*, insists that Google, in particular does not look at outbound links(at all).

Search algorithms are so complex that I doubt anyone could prove this one way or the other.

I agree 100%. No search engine has published its specification, although Google published some papers on the subject in the past. So it's kind of silly to say "Such and such is definitive." All we can do is to make an educated guess at best. I'm sure some people do better than others, but it still doesn't mean that those SEO experts understand search engines 100%.

[Scottie]

Hmnn... wonder how all those directories are ranking so well with all those outbound links...?

True, there is a difference between sites that have some outbound links and sites that are totally made up of outbound links, but if you think outbound links hurt, I'd say that's incorrect. (Unless, as Jill says, you are linking to )

I am of the opinion that the search engines aren't impressed with dead end sites that have no outbound links at all... while I don't think it hurts anything I think that your site is deemed more important if you have incoming and outgoing relevant links in your industry/community. We know Teoma works that way already.

[kristof]

Outbound links are CONTENT. They affect your relevance. If you have a bunch of links on your page and they all talk about flowers, then it's like having a page full of the keyword "flowers" and variations of it - all in bold or H3 type - they are not only keywords, but they are treated as important keywords.

Thank you Ian for the most thoughtful, complete, and precise statement about outbound links that I have ever read! Your entire post here bears careful reading, several times. It really clarifies something that I had not thought about that deeply.

However, could you please clarify this one aspect a bit more. You say that "outbound links count as content..." But do they count in exactly the same way as general text? Or does the spider perhaps count the "link text" separately?

I.e.---possibility #1, the spider counts the number of outbound links containing the word "flowers..." This is counted SEPARATELY from the general "keyword density" for the entire page. Because it is inside a link text, it is perhaps given a different or separate emphasis.

Possibility #2---when counting keyword density, any text---including outbound link text---is all lumped together.

If outbound link text is counted just the same as any other text---this creates the obvious opportunity to increase the keyword density, simply by adding links. In this way, you can increase the density for certain keyphrases that are difficult to include "naturally" in normal text.

On the other hand, this also creates the possible problem of accidentally being "banned" for using "keyword spam..."

Example: I am building a "web designer directory." So on a single page, I need to put links to all my regional listings: "Alabama web designers," "Arkansas web designers," etc. for all 50 states. Therefore IF the outbound link text counts for keyphrase density---then my "excessive" density for "web designers" certainly might tip off a spam filter...?

I could, of course, simply change each link text so it only says "Alabama," "Arkansas," etc. That however would eliminate the important value to the target page, of having an incoming link that makes it clear that this page is about "Alabama WEB DESIGNERS" and not just about "Alabama" in general....

Well, I have decided to be cautious, and to make sure that the page with all these "web designer" links also includes plenty of general text, to reduce the keyphrase density. But plenty of similar directories are not so cautious, and do not seem to have any problem. Anyway, I am not asking for specific comments about my web design directory. I am just using this as an example to ask this question, to complete your excellent commentary on outbound links:

In general, do you think there is any specific exclusion or separation for "link text" when a spider counts the keyphrase density? Can the "link text" of outbound links be used to increase the keyphrase density---and perhaps even to increase it "too much"?

Thank you.

Edited by kristof, 15 April 2004 - 01:40 PM.

[mcanerin]

I'm pretty sure that it would be hard to trip a spam filter with just links (assuming they are not linked to spam) - otherwise directories would be in trouble. But I can't completely discount the possibilty, either.

As a rule of thumb, I'd would try to keep the number of total links on a page (including your nav structure) under a hundred (Google actually recommends this). And I would go further and say you should keep it under 50 - I personally aim for around 30 or so (no hard number, just a general principle)

Once you get to a certain number of links, i would consider making a second page, rather than continuing to add links. This is not only from a PR viewpoint, but also (and more importantly) from a usability standpoint - it's hard to find a link in a page that full, so if you do fill it, then it's for purposes other than serving your visitors, which would put it on the "watch" list of anyone looking to tweak an algo.

I don't know if it is deprecated, but I would certainly expect it, sooner or later. On the other hand - look at a Yahoo Directory and you can see a LOT of links that have obviously not been considered spam.

I suspect that the SE's look at content and link density as 2 different types of important content, and have different rules for handling each. But they are still considered content.

I'm afraid that wasn't too helpful, but hopefully it helped a bit


Ian

[kristof]

I'm afraid that wasn't too helpful, but hopefully it helped a bit

Thank you Ian. I like your thinking! Yes, you certainly have taken me one step further on this issue.

To separate these link navigations into several pages is an excellent suggestion. Hmmm... "Eastern USA web designers," "Central USA web designers," "Western USA web designers...."

Not the kind of organization that I had my heart set on, but certainly it can be done....

[scolling]

Does outbound link hurt or help?

Not everything about publishing a website should be aroudn what what SE's like and dislike - if it makes sence to link, and it complients your copy, and the users expereince then do it - if it doesn;, then don't

Simon