It's a closely related problem.
The Doctype tells the browser what version of html a page is using. So the tags and attributes that you use on a page will depend upon which DTD you choose for a page.
There is another decision that you make that is related to the individual characters that appear on the web page. The character code that you use can be set on the server level (which is a good place to do it) but it can also be set on a page, like this:
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;charset=iso-8859-1">
A program such as Microsoft Word might use a different character set that the one I listed above, or different from the one used by this forum. If I cut and pasted from Word into the text box this forum uses for posting, I might want to retype my quotation marks. It's possible that they would turn out looking differently than I anticipated.
Someone can set their browser to view pages under a specific default character set, which may be different than the character set that was used when the page was written.
Here's some on different character codings from a tutorial that covers the topic well, but might be a little too technical for most people:
http://www.cs.tut.fi...rs.html#display
A doctype is like a grammar. Character coding is like an alphabet. In your code, when you set a doctype and a character code, you are telling a browser what your choice of alphabet and grammar are.
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Doctype?
Started by
deborah2002
, Aug 26 2003 01:33 PM
26 replies to this topic
#16
Bill Slawski
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Posted 26 August 2003 - 10:33 PM
#17
mcanerin
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Posted 26 August 2003 - 10:42 PM
I was able to get my site looking almost exactly like it was before (with some actual improvements) and I'm really bad for using enough nested tables to make some browsers scream in agony. I'm a control freak when it comes to my sites looking like what I want them to look like, and CSS and so forth actually gave me more control (woot!). Not one table now, and no invis gifs or anything else like that either - it's fun.
The fact that it degrades well is wonderful too. When I test it in Lynx it looks way better, and I'm careful normally about that.
Ian
The fact that it degrades well is wonderful too. When I test it in Lynx it looks way better, and I'm careful normally about that.
Ian
#18
Bill Slawski
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Posted 26 August 2003 - 10:59 PM
Some other benefits of doctypes, validation and CSS:
Smaller pages with less complicated code.
A linked stylesheet that lets you make global changes by altering the contents of one file.
The possibility of a printed version that doesn't include navigation elements, decorative images, and other unwanted material, and switches from a san serif type font to a serif font, while also including custom sized pages appropriate to A4 or Letter size, and different sized margins.
Special versions for handheld media.
Smaller pages with less complicated code.
A linked stylesheet that lets you make global changes by altering the contents of one file.
The possibility of a printed version that doesn't include navigation elements, decorative images, and other unwanted material, and switches from a san serif type font to a serif font, while also including custom sized pages appropriate to A4 or Letter size, and different sized margins.
Special versions for handheld media.
#19
mcanerin
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Posted 27 August 2003 - 10:24 AM
I had heard about CSS and related stuff like doctypes for some time now (hey, to me anything past HTML 3 is all new, ok? I'm old skool 
)
I never really got the point until 2 things happened: I discovered that W3C compliant sites have an advantage over non W3C sites, all other things being equal, and 2 ) I went here: Zen Garden
This is one of the coolest sites on the net for designers right now that I know of. It's one website, but there are about a hundred CSS templates for it made by various designers. You can click through them and have the site look totally different each time. Lots of fun.
What got my attention wasn't that they changed color schemes and fonts (big deal) but the WHOLE LAYOUT changes. Menus pop up, tables appear and all sorts of really complicated looking things happen just by choosing a new CSS sheet, which is often only a couple of dozen lines in a text file. ANd it's not code, it's just easy stuff like:
Which is almost exactly like what most peoples HTML <body> attributes look like. Very easy, and there is lots of help available. Yes, I'm a convert
Ian
)I never really got the point until 2 things happened: I discovered that W3C compliant sites have an advantage over non W3C sites, all other things being equal, and 2 ) I went here: Zen Garden
This is one of the coolest sites on the net for designers right now that I know of. It's one website, but there are about a hundred CSS templates for it made by various designers. You can click through them and have the site look totally different each time. Lots of fun.
What got my attention wasn't that they changed color schemes and fonts (big deal) but the WHOLE LAYOUT changes. Menus pop up, tables appear and all sorts of really complicated looking things happen just by choosing a new CSS sheet, which is often only a couple of dozen lines in a text file. ANd it's not code, it's just easy stuff like:
body { margin: 0px; background-image: URL(images/bg2test.gif); color: #000000; background-color: #FFFFFF; font-family: "Times New Roman", Times, serif; font-size: 12pt; text-align : center; vertical-align : middle; }Which is almost exactly like what most peoples HTML <body> attributes look like. Very easy, and there is lots of help available. Yes, I'm a convert
Ian
#20
Randy
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Posted 27 August 2003 - 11:14 AM
Too true Ian and Bragadocchio. CSS is soooooo easy to use compared to nested tables it's almost laughable. I haven't created a site which doesn't make extensive use of CSS in... hmm...I don't even remember how long.
Like others have pointed out, there are a couple of browser compatiblity issues you need to watch out for, especially if you need to design for Netscape 4.x users. But it's not too bad normally.
Over the last couple of years I've even managed to convince all of my designer friends that they should be using CSS. Basically by telling them I don't do Nested Tables when they came to me wanting help figuing out why something didn't work. :tooth:
Here's another interesting one you're really into CSS: WebRef CSS Tutorial It's a step-by-step of what they did when converting their old nested table layout into pure CSS. Not sure I would have done it exactly the way they did, but it's an interesting read if you're into advanced CSS concepts.
Randy
Like others have pointed out, there are a couple of browser compatiblity issues you need to watch out for, especially if you need to design for Netscape 4.x users. But it's not too bad normally.
Over the last couple of years I've even managed to convince all of my designer friends that they should be using CSS. Basically by telling them I don't do Nested Tables when they came to me wanting help figuing out why something didn't work. :tooth:
Here's another interesting one you're really into CSS: WebRef CSS Tutorial It's a step-by-step of what they did when converting their old nested table layout into pure CSS. Not sure I would have done it exactly the way they did, but it's an interesting read if you're into advanced CSS concepts.
Randy
#21
Aesopian
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Posted 27 August 2003 - 12:35 PM
WaSP explains the advantages of using web standards (which includes DOCTYPE) here:
http://www.webstanda...g/learn/faq/#p3
They do a great summary of why the use of standards is important to the future of the web, your own site included, so I throughly recommend you read what they have to say.
http://www.webstanda...g/learn/faq/#p3
They do a great summary of why the use of standards is important to the future of the web, your own site included, so I throughly recommend you read what they have to say.
#22
Jill
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Posted 27 August 2003 - 12:46 PM
Welcome, Aesopian! 
Jill
Jill
#23
deborah2002
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Posted 27 August 2003 - 12:51 PM
Too all of you---thank you , thank you, thank you! 
Actually, a coupla ya'll answered another question before I asked it--the whole CSS thing.
BTW Randy, still not convinced you aren't an encyclopedia..........
Every thread I start/jump into just proves my theory....this is a never ending process of learning. Now, on to my CSS studies *sigh*
Thanks again!
deb
Actually, a coupla ya'll answered another question before I asked it--the whole CSS thing.
BTW Randy, still not convinced you aren't an encyclopedia..........
Every thread I start/jump into just proves my theory....this is a never ending process of learning. Now, on to my CSS studies *sigh*
Thanks again!
deb
#24
deborah2002
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Posted 27 August 2003 - 12:58 PM
Aesopian, thanks for the link................perusing now........................ :read:
deb
deb
#25
Aesopian
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Posted 27 August 2003 - 01:31 PM
Thanks for the welcome, Jill. I felt a need to pop in when I saw that there were questions regarding web standards, since it is a subject I find very important.
I'm lucky as regards web development, since I was only 10-years-old during the famous Browser Wars (and therefor not into web design), and HTML 4.01 was the first language I learned when I was 16. I quickly moved to XHTML and CSS once I learned about them. But knowing that not everyone was able to skip all those years of crazy web design like I did, I've taken up spreading information regarding the W3 standards, and their importance to web designers and users as well.
Here are some links for deborah, or anyone else interested, that will give you an introduction to the CSS, and then some intermediate and advanced techniques and concepts to use:
I recommend starting with w3schools.com/css/css_intro.asp. This is the best introduction, as well as complete reference, for CSS that I've found. I use it constantly, several times per day.
I suggest working on using of stylesheet with backgrounds, text, fonts, colors, borders, padding, margins and lists first, before getting into any CSS-based layouts. You can practice the above on a site without much trouble, since they don't require any huge design changes.
Fear of Style Sheet is an important article to read if you are coming out of years of using font tags and table-based layouts. A Web Designer's Journey is also very important for explaining how one would go from years of browser-specific, hack-filled web design to one of web standards.
W3, the group behind all of these web standards, has a great list of references for learning CSS that can be found here:
http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/learning
I don't recommend reading the actual W3 specs for CSS until you have a broad familiarity with the subject, since they are very technical, and not a tutorial in learning CSS (they are more for those making programs that would need to interpret CSS).
WaSP has a list of CSS references (some of which I've already mentioned) that can be found here:
http://www.webstanda.../css/index.html
Going through those, you are sure to find many more references I won't bother listing out here.
When you do get to a point that you feel you can tackle advanced CSS, such as using it for layout and design, I recommend you check out glish.com/css/. Be sure to check out their examples, and also go through all the sites they link to (css/edge is my favorite).
Almost all of the above links I mentioned also have sections on XHTML, which you'll need to learn to if you want to get the most out of CSS.
If you have any questions (about CSS, about stardards, etc.), or want some more links check out, I'll be glad to supply answers for either.
Hope that helps.
I felt a need to pop in when I saw that there were questions regarding web standards, since it is a subject I find very important.I'm lucky as regards web development, since I was only 10-years-old during the famous Browser Wars (and therefor not into web design), and HTML 4.01 was the first language I learned when I was 16. I quickly moved to XHTML and CSS once I learned about them. But knowing that not everyone was able to skip all those years of crazy web design like I did, I've taken up spreading information regarding the W3 standards, and their importance to web designers and users as well.
Here are some links for deborah, or anyone else interested, that will give you an introduction to the CSS, and then some intermediate and advanced techniques and concepts to use:
I recommend starting with w3schools.com/css/css_intro.asp. This is the best introduction, as well as complete reference, for CSS that I've found. I use it constantly, several times per day.
I suggest working on using of stylesheet with backgrounds, text, fonts, colors, borders, padding, margins and lists first, before getting into any CSS-based layouts. You can practice the above on a site without much trouble, since they don't require any huge design changes.
Fear of Style Sheet is an important article to read if you are coming out of years of using font tags and table-based layouts. A Web Designer's Journey is also very important for explaining how one would go from years of browser-specific, hack-filled web design to one of web standards.
W3, the group behind all of these web standards, has a great list of references for learning CSS that can be found here:
http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/learning
I don't recommend reading the actual W3 specs for CSS until you have a broad familiarity with the subject, since they are very technical, and not a tutorial in learning CSS (they are more for those making programs that would need to interpret CSS).
WaSP has a list of CSS references (some of which I've already mentioned) that can be found here:
http://www.webstanda.../css/index.html
Going through those, you are sure to find many more references I won't bother listing out here.
When you do get to a point that you feel you can tackle advanced CSS, such as using it for layout and design, I recommend you check out glish.com/css/. Be sure to check out their examples, and also go through all the sites they link to (css/edge is my favorite).
Almost all of the above links I mentioned also have sections on XHTML, which you'll need to learn to if you want to get the most out of CSS.
If you have any questions (about CSS, about stardards, etc.), or want some more links check out, I'll be glad to supply answers for either.
Hope that helps.
#26
deborah2002
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Posted 27 August 2003 - 01:48 PM
Aesopian,
Those are great--I've already added to my favorites list. Thanks a bunch for the info!
deb
Those are great--I've already added to my favorites list. Thanks a bunch for the info!
deb
#27
idrive
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Posted 27 August 2003 - 03:53 PM
All of this talk about CSS for layout can't go without mention of the Rich in Style Bug Table and CSS Pointers Group.
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