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Doctype?


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26 replies to this topic

#1 deborah2002

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Posted 26 August 2003 - 01:33 PM

Hey all--
This isn't really my thing, so if it's no big deal, please let me know. The "doctype" is supposed to be specified in the code for who? I mean, who needs it? I know its not for spiders or people, so what difference does it make wether it's there or not? I've been doing some checking and all I've managed to uncover is that my site has no doctype declaration and hasn't for over 4 years.

Now, I know this all ties in with browser compatibility, but is it an absolute necessity? Any help I can get would be great. Thanks, ya'll.

deb

Wait---if I dont have "doctype" initiated, that means it goes into "default" and its up to each browser to figure out how to display, right? (I'm reading on this as we speak................). Think Im on to somethin' here............ :) :read:


:wacko:
deb

Edited by deborah2002, 26 August 2003 - 01:46 PM.


#2 Jill

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Posted 26 August 2003 - 02:01 PM

It's not necessary for SEO, but does serve other purposes.

I just don't know what they are! I'm sure others will chime in, however.

:wacko:

J

#3 mcanerin

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Posted 26 August 2003 - 02:03 PM

So far, the only purpose it served me was so that I could get my website certified as W3C HTML and CSS certified.

Quite a learning experience, that :wacko: .Everything I used to know about writing HTML is now wrong <sigh>

Ian

#4 deborah2002

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Posted 26 August 2003 - 02:08 PM

Thanks Jill, thanks Ian!

Ian, since you brought it up, is there an advantage to being "certified W3C" compliant? I've seen that all over the place and other than being able to say "hey, look at me, I'm certified", I don't understand the point. (That wasn't supposed to sound as sarcastic as it did).

Am I wasting a lot of time caring about this? Oh, well.......at least it's taking my mind off other things........................ :wacko:


deb

#5 mcanerin

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Posted 26 August 2003 - 02:15 PM

I did it as an exercise in good design and to explore possible SEO benifits to it. So far there haven't been any direct ones.

The indirect ones are that often directory editors will be more kindly disposed towards fully compliant sites, especially sites that care enough to be compliant. One in question for the SEO industry is the SEOPros directory.

Ian

#6 Think Web

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Posted 26 August 2003 - 02:22 PM

...is there an advantage to being "certified W3C" compliant?  I've seen that all over the place and other than being able to say "hey, look at me, I'm certified", I don't understand the point....

:wacko: Will there come a day when corporate America asks us if we're SEMPO certified?

#7 deborah2002

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Posted 26 August 2003 - 02:47 PM

OK, so if I go ahead and make the pages 4.01 strict, for example, what will happen to the site? Does it change it in any way? Again, I know its just for compatibility but I am afraid of altering the site--we just won an award for it and I don't wanna botch that up! :wacko:


deb

#8 compar

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Posted 26 August 2003 - 02:48 PM

So how does one use or apply the doctype tag. If I'm hand coding in notepad what is my doctype?

#9 Randy

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Posted 26 August 2003 - 02:53 PM

DocType, by the simpliest definition, is simply a declaration as to what HTML version the page is coded in. Of course it goes a lot farther than that since there are different ways to code web pages (XHTML, MathML, SVG and combinations) but most people won't be dealing with that kind of thing. So no need to further confuse the issue.

Doctypes were originally introduced in an effort to create standards-based browsers. Back in the old days (we're talking the mid- to late-90's here) things were getting totally out of control. The big two browser manufacturers (Internet Explorer and Netscape) kept coming out with new models which introduced a lot of proprietary technology into the mix in an effort to gain market share on each other. Both wanted to have the "latest, greatest feature" that the other didn't have of course.

The problem was that as the browser war went on many of these new browser versions tended to break old pages. ie...Something which worked in IE4 many times wouldn't work in Netscape 4.05. Even to the point that some things which worked in Netscape 4.74 may or may not work in Netscape 4.75. It was nuts because you could design a site which worked perfectly, and then 6 months later it nothing worked at all in the new crop of browsers.

Today Doctypes are controlled by the Worldwide Web Consortium (W3C.org), the end-all and be-all of Web Usability and Compatibility issues. As noted above Doctypes do not mean much to 99.9% of the browsing population. Browser manufacturer's use the Doctype DTD (Document Type Definition) rules when they're building a new browser version of course, however forthe average web site designer out there they really don't mean much honestly.

If your pages do not "Validate" properly this can certainly affect your SEO potential, but it's very, very rare to have something messed up enough to not be indexed at all. If that's the case, chances are the page won't display properly either so you would know right away. Most sites created over the last few years are going to fall into at least the HTML 4.01 loose.dtd specification. Which will get you spidered just fine thank you very much.

There are only three times which I can think of where you would have to pay special attention to DocType and whether your site validates perfectly to the W3C standards...

1.) If you wanted to put the little W3C.org graphic on your site showing that your site does indeed validate. If you want to display that graphic you'd better make sure the page validates correctly because it's easy to tell if someone is fibbing the least little bit.

2.) If you're creating a site which is targeted towards those who have a disability, especially involving their eyesight. In that case you'll definitely want to give yourself every advantage of being able to attract this audience and "speak" to them (many sight impaired surfers use some sort of speech software which will literally read the page to them.)

3.) If you're designing a site for a governmental body, public school or university. There was a federal law passed a couple of years ago in the US which said all governmental sites and the web sites of anyone who receives funding from the federal government should meet the disability/usability standards by this past spring if they wanted to continue receiving funding. Most haven't done it of course, but the Fed's haven't pushed the issue either. I do know of a few universities who have dealt with these usability compliance issues because I helped them through the process of updating their 10,000+ page sites. :hehe: I dare ya to give that one a try sometime when you have a lot of free time on your hands.

For the average Joe or Josephine Web Designer, it doesn't make much difference though. If the pages display fine in the major browsers you'll be just fine.

For more detailed info on Doctypes visit W3C.org and search their site for "Doctype". There is a wealth of info there since that's where the concept orginates from. Also, if you want to validate your code, Dave Raggett over at W3C developed a little tool called HTML Tidy years ago to do just that. He's passed the project on to others now, but they still list links to it at W3C if you do a search for this free tool there.

Randy

#10 deborah2002

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Posted 26 August 2003 - 02:53 PM

Hi, Bob!

Well, you can try this link:
http://developer.app...ml/doctype.html

Then this one.....
http://cscie12.dce.harvard.edu/dtd/

Possibly this one...........
http://www.htmlhelp....or/doctype.html


I know, I know, a little carried away here...I am one of those overachiever types who studies and studies til I know something like the back of my hand--then I go back and check! :D

The code is put right above the <html> heading--at the very top

Hope this helps--I had no idea I'd be able to actually HELP someone on my own thread!

deb

#11 deborah2002

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Posted 26 August 2003 - 02:58 PM

Randy, you are a walking encyclopedia---cool! Thanks for the info...

There are actually sites that REQUIRE the W3C certification (I don't know if I'm allowed to post who they are--not spam or anything, just not sure if that's ok). That's actually where all this doc-stuff-mania came from....just like me to get an idea and RUUUUUNNNN with it.

Thanks again!

deb

#12 Randy

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Posted 26 August 2003 - 05:02 PM

Randy,  you are a walking encyclopedia...

There are actually sites that REQUIRE  the W3C certification

I'm far from an encyclopedia Deb. Just been doing this far too long and even managed to survive the Great Browser Wars and Incompatibility of the last decade somehow. LOL You should see some of the stuff I've had to pull with Javascript back in the day to make sure pages worked for every browser type. It was silly and a waste of effort IMHO, but it had to be done nonetheless.

Correct-a-mundo on the fact that some sites do require Doctype/W3C Certification, regardless of whether they'll be displaying the W3C graphic or not. I mentioned just a few of them that I know of because I've worked on those types of sites before, but there are others to be sure.

Randy

#13 idrive

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Posted 26 August 2003 - 09:36 PM

I found a fairly layterm definition of Doctype at ALA

#14 Bill Slawski

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Posted 26 August 2003 - 09:58 PM

Why I like setting a doctype:

1. Errors can be caught with validators, and validators like doctypes.

2. If you can validate to a modern standard, you stand a good chance of having most browsers being able to interpret your pages well, even text to speech or text to braille readers.

3. Accessibility is a great thing to strive towards for a number of reasons (morally, legally, and economically), and working towards standards is a big step towards making accessible pages.

Accessibility helps people who might otherwise not be able to enjoy your site.

But, it also doesn't hurt that search engines like well formed alt text, title attributes, table captions and summaries, noframes where appropriate, and text alternatives for objects.

It's not something that you have to do, but I'm convinced that it's better to try than not to.

#15 idrive

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Posted 26 August 2003 - 10:07 PM

Could missing doctypes be the reason that sometimes apostrophes show up as their ascii equivalents on a web page? I come across this every now and then...




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