12 replies to this topic

[PatrickGer]

What's the difference between a (targeted) link request - as in...one compelling reason to get a link (a win-win offer) and addressing the person with their name...relatively high success rate,etc.

and SPAM?

Some cases are just obvious, but where do you draw the line? And more importantly - where does the law (wherever you're at) draw the line?

[Mooro]

If you email me without solicitation you've spammed me, that's how I draw a line on such things.

The law and spam, don't make me laugh.

The law here hasn't got a clue about anything digital, they can't even solve regular non-digital / stone age style crimes so asking and expecting them to be able to tackle something as pandemic as spam is like asking a chimp to type the complete works of Willy Shakes.

I might as well be a spammer actually, just to see how many mails I can send before I get a knock at the door. I bet you it'd be in the tens of billions before anything came from it.

[PatrickGer]

Interesting to see where you draw the line. I remember other definitions that include that it must be not just one e-mail. and/or commercial content,etc..so personally I dont agree with your definition (but please dont get me wrong, I asked how other people defined it, so please dont mistake this for me complaining or anything).

Good to hear Ive spammed some of my college professors before - they deserved it

If you email me without solicitation you've spammed me, that's how I draw a line on such things.

The law and spam, don't make me laugh.

The law here hasn't got a clue about anything digital, they can't even solve regular non-digital / stone age style crimes so asking and expecting them to be able to tackle something as pandemic as spam is like asking a chimp to type the complete works of Willy Shakes.

I might as well be a spammer actually, just to see how many mails I can send before I get a knock at the door. I bet you it'd be in the tens of billions before anything came from it.

[Jill]

If you email me without solicitation you've spammed me, that's how I draw a line on such things.

Ditto.

[rolf]

Interesting question and one where I think we may find we all have a slightly different placement for 'the line'

If you email me without solicitation you've spammed me, that's how I draw a line on such things

I draw the line in a similar place, but with the exception that if someone has taken the time to view my website and they personally write an email to me about exchanging links or doing something else with respect to my site then I don't consider it spam, even though it's not directly solicited.

Is this a reasonable exception? Maybe we define 'unsolicited' differently? How do you define it?

[Jill]

Is this a reasonable exception? Maybe we define 'unsolicited' differently? How do you define it?

It depends. Do you ask for these solicitations on your site? e.g., do you have a links page which mentions that you're always on the look out for new and interesting sites to add there?

Or is there no place on your site to even link to other sites? (In which case, their email is spam.)

[PatrickGer]

I have come to the conclusion that for me personally a single line might not be enough.... and that in the end the word SPAM and where to draw the line ( I know I asked so i had it coming ) is nothing but semantics.

I assume no matter how any of you defines SPAM, you'll all agree that sending out literally tons of unpersonalized e-mails containing offers for viagra.... is different than sending a personalized e-mail that actually does ask for a link that your site's visitors would be highly interested in

saw this good example the other day of a "good" link request e-mail where someone mailed the SEO blogger if he might want to consider adding a link to his photodatabase-sortof-site to his web design category, as it would help his visitors choose photos (and as he already had another such link to a similar site in his web design category, that apparently wasn't enough to serve the needs of his visitors)...

I think no matter how any of us defines SPAM...saying that sending out tons of unpersonalized viagra e-mails is a bit different than something as the example above...is sort of obvious.

Sort of like - where do you draw the line between a righteous action and a "crime". Rape and murder are crimes and so is gambling or having no ticket on the bus :-)

EDIT: In my own mind, I will refuse to see a highly personalized link request as being in the same boat as mass spam. I find "offline spam" waaaaay worse, because I cant just delete that stuff and people continue to bother you as you pass them....and the only theory so far as to why such offline spam should be legal, but online spam shouldnt that ive heard so far is that - online it is much easier to send out tons of spam, and if we let that happen then everybody's inboxes would explode.

I think that's a pretty valid point between offline spam (I mean annoying people trying to promote stuff in your face) and online Spam and why it makes sense to punish it online, but not offline.......However in that case I would see highly targeted link requests, where the person took time to review the site and makes a genuine offer and spent lots of time crafting the campaign, or at least see it separate...as that has a high cost associated with it just as "offline spam", and wont lead to spammed inboxes in the same way that mass SPAM does (or are there more people on the www than I think ).

EDIT2: Anyway, the above is just from an ethical point of view...and really comes down to semantics...

but what it all comes down to (for me), admittedly, is what the law or whoever else is involved (the www-consortium?! ICANN?!? my domain-provider? sorry have no idea about this stuff, yet! ) says about this. What am I allowed to do, what am I not allowed to do?

Edited by PatrickGer, 12 October 2010 - 12:13 PM.

[lister]

If you email me without solicitation you've spammed me, that's how I draw a line on such things.

I disagree.

(I obviously agree with outright spam selling you medication and enlargement pills etc)

But I disagree since what is wrong with approaching someone to stimulate and go get business? You can stay indoors and hope that your ship comes into port one day or guess what, you can go out there and actively, politely, professionally, research a genuinely useful site that you honestly believe is of value to both your visitors and click the "contact us" link on a site....after all they are saying to you that you can "contact us"! So do that!

If I am a market seller selling fruit and the person 5 stalls down sells blenders, why can't I professionally "email" / approach, that stall and say, "Hey, maybe your visitors might like to buy fruit to put in their blender" That is not spam - that is being proactive.

The point I am making is go out and ask and get. Always be professional and be completely and utterly pro-active.

***

EDIT

I received this email this morning - from a person I had "spammed"

Hi Harry,

This is great, thanks for thinking of us, please see below the info we would like to include. I have gone ahead and added your link on our Industry Links/Partners page, you may view here: URL

Thanks again Name of Very Nice Lady

********** The above is 100% copy and paste email I recieved this morning (i changed my name and removed hers and the URL). The link she gave me is next to government agencies and her site is a non-profit site with doubtfully any spam on it. I had offered to write a piece on them and post it on my blog which is informative and relevant to their readers.

My point? Ask and get, now I have a lovely dofollow link coming to me having "spammed" someone apparently. Nonsense.

Edited by lister, 12 October 2010 - 06:42 PM.

[PatrickGer]

and click the "contact us" link on a site....after all they are saying to you that you can "contact us"! So do that!

@ lister: I basically agree with you, but the "contact us"-thing just made me think of something...didnt jill bring up the point that its spam if there isnt anything like that suggesting you can contact them on the page, and you still do it?

I just wondered - now, where the hell would one draw the line when it comes to this?lol

If a person has their e-mail on their website, does this not suggest that people are allowed to contact them? Why would you have your e-mail on the website or a contact us form or whatever else, if you do not want to be contacted by anyone, who you didn't ask?

in other words if theres an e-mail or a contact us form on the page, and it does *not* state "Only demographic xyz can send me e-mails"...doesnt this mean that anyone is allowed to contact them?

Now, we could see link requests in a different light, but if we go by this logic, then at least, I did not really spam my college professors, as they do have their e-mail addresses on their personal pages on my university website.

Actually, I did come across a website the other day which only had their phone number listed saying they dont accept e-mails. Now if you e-mail them, youre a spammer in my book LOL ;-)

[lister]

When I am watching TV and there is a commerical for women's sanitary products, as a male, am I being spammed? I know that by watching TV there will be advertisements and some, like this sanitary one, will not be aimed at me but I dont mind since I am expecting it.

When I am surfing the internet, checking my email, I also expect that I will recieve emails selling me all kinds of crap. Do not take offense if someone emails you for a link, say no and wish them luck! Reference to @mooro "If you email me without solicitation you've spammed me, that's how I draw a line on such things" - I find that too harsh.

People contacting each other in a professional/friendly manner to promote their business or interest is absolutely fine in my book and long may that continue and flourish. Why do we have to wait to be introduced? Get on with it and make the biz happen! Fortune favors the brave.

If people tout illegal, or indeed anything "illegal" or "anti-social" (let common sense dicatate here) then yes that is spam. Agreed.

[Jill]

I assume no matter how any of you defines SPAM, you'll all agree that sending out literally tons of unpersonalized e-mails containing offers for viagra.... is different than sending a personalized e-mail that actually does ask for a link that your site's visitors would be highly interested in

As long as the link requester can point out a relevant and specific place on your site where that link would make perfect sense, then that's fine. But most link requests I've seen don't do that.

But again, if you have a links page then you're basically inviting people to submit links to you. If you don't, you're not.

If you're submitting links to a blogger, you should be building a relationship with them first and not just asking for them to add your site to their blogroll...that's just rude!

[PatrickGer]

As long as the link requester can point out a relevant and specific place on your site where that link would make perfect sense, then that's fine. But most link requests I've seen don't do that.

In that case I agree with you perfectly, I guess :-). My opinion (and I think lister's is the same?) is that a relevant link request that's a genuine win-win opportunity (at least a sincere attempt at doing so, well thought-out and all without being cheesy) is not spam (by my definition, any way)...I never meant the "hi, your site and my site we could link to each other it would be good for SEO"-kind of link request :-)

If you're submitting links to a blogger, you should be building a relationship with them first and not just asking for them to add your site to their blogroll...that's just rude!

I was going to start a site about learning a foreign language and ended up e-mailing with a teacher for that language (French)..sent a c ouple e-mails forth and back about the sub-topic I was going to create the site about and wanted to learn about... she was seriously trying to help me, set aside time to help me (for free!),etc. ...most likely I could have gotten a link (if I had created that site), but that would have felt downright dirty...not the kind of person I want to be like.

If I was a blogger and someone's main goal was to get a link from my site, Id prefer if they e-mailed me with compelling content that I truly might want to show to my visitors (whether hell get the link or not is another question ), rather than building a relationship with me, first, in order to increase their chances of getting the link (I would consider this stealing my time..much more so than dozens of spam e-mails i can delete quickly).

Is this a bit of a misunderstanding, again, Jill? I have a feeling it is ..sorry in case it is

[Jill]

If I was a blogger and someone's main goal was to get a link from my site, Id prefer if they e-mailed me with compelling content that I truly might want to show to my visitors (whether hell get the link or not is another question biggrin.gif), rather than building a relationship with me, first, in order to increase their chances of getting the link (I would consider this stealing my time..much more so than dozens of spam e-mails i can delete quickly).

People...and bloggers in particular...link to their friends.

And they do so without being asked. I'm just sayin'.

And by the way if getting the link is you're main goal then you're already doing it wrong. (Not you, specifically. )