19 replies to this topic

[MaKa]

Listening to the radio this morning my girlfriend mentioned that it was reported that Google may pull out of China.

"Internet giant Google says it may end its operations in China after hackers targeted the e-mail accounts of Chinese human rights activists."

"It did not specifically accuse China's government, but said it was no longer willing to censor its Chinese site's results, as the government requires."

The BBC website has the full article Google 'may pull out of China after Gmail cyber attack'

[1dmf]

Interesteing Maka,

I guess G! wasn't getting enough PPC revenue from China then.

They are quite happy to censor its results when it wants to, and as you must abide by the rules of any country you wish to do business in, I doubt that is the real reason.

[MaKa]

It could be a delayed reaction on the criticism to their "Do no evil" mantra when they started in China.

[1dmf]

Right, like China are the only hackers in the world.

G! are quite happy to gloss over things when the hacking is to their advantage as we found out when our account was stolen and we never got our money back!

Even the USA has had a UK guy extradited for suposedly hacking military computers, when the system he entered didn't even have a password, not what i'd call hacking, would you?

There is always more than meets the eye!

[SelfMade]

Wouldn't have anything to do with Baidu would it??

[Randy]

There is always more than meets the eye!

Never were truer words spoken. Speaking from personal experience there is always a lot more going on than anybody outside of those directly involved realize the moment you start doing business in China. Lots of really strange requirements placed on you (by both the Chinese and your home government) at least half of which are not actually written down anywhere. Not to mention there usually being a lot of money passing under the table, money that nobody told you about when you first got started.

It's just a different world, one that no one outside of China can fully understand.

Having had more than a few dealings in that part of the world in a past life I always wondered how the boys at Google were going to handle some of the stuff I knew would be happening sooner or later. But it didn't surprise me when they wanted to jump into the Chinese market, it being as large as it is. Nor does it surprise me that they've decided to pull out. Nor will it surprise me when sometime in the future they come up with a different way to be in the Chinese market, albeit in a less direct way.

I seriously doubt they understood what they were getting themselves into.

[Jill]

Google's official word:

A New Approach to China

[SelfMade]

When a company the sheer size of G starts giving unrequested reasons for their actions then, I have got to say... it makes me somewhat dubious:

"We have taken the unusual step of sharing information about these attacks with a broad audience not just because of the security and human rights implications of what we have unearthed, but also because this information goes to the heart of a much bigger global debate about freedom of speech"

[Randy]

I would caution everyone to be careful when making assumptions as to Google's motivations in this particular case. Because unless you have personally conducted business on a similar scale in China, dealing with the Chinese government and pseudo-government factions and the numerous cultural differences from how we live our lives, you cannot possibly know all of the things Google employees have been facing and are still facing.

For good or ill, I have had this type of experience because of past employment. I could tell you horror stories. And I'm not using that phraseology the way most do. I mean I could tell you literal horror stories. And even with the significant experience I have in how things work in China (for a Westerner) I'd be willing to bet my guesses as to what's really happening would only scratch the surface of what Google's facing. I might be able to guess half of it at best.

I'm usually not one to cut Google a break, as many around here know. In this case they're getting a blanket free pass from me. I just hope the boys at Google already had something planned and in place to take care of their own people who are still in the country. If not, those folks are now at significant risk.

[SelfMade]

Randy, could you or Jill remove my above post, it may be appropriate..your call given the circumstances.

[1dmf]

Why would you say that Kaz, what ever hapened to freedom of speech

The whole thing stinks, but when doesn't it, never knew G! were activists for freedom of information, no sorry that's freedom to pay for information

We all know what China can be like for human rights, but it doesn't stop big business doing business in China, how else you gonna get those nice new sneakers!

What ever official release comes from giant corporations you can be sure it's been through the PR spin dryer first!

The interesting thing I find about this is they seem to be implying that the China government is involved some how, this type of action indicates there is something quite sinister going on under the smoke screen.

Like Randy says

I'd be willing to bet my guesses as to what's really happening would only scratch the surface of what Google's facing.

[SelfMade]

I could tell you horror stories. And I'm not using that phraseology the way most do. I mean I could tell you literal horror stories. And even with the significant experience I have in how things work in China (for a Westerner) I'd be willing to bet my guesses as to what's really happening would only scratch the surface of what Google's facing. I might be able to guess half of it at best.

Yeah your probably 99.9999999% right 1dmf, but what randy has said above, you know..... its a consideration.

Everyone of us has our own axe to grind with G for whatever reason, but on this one, I am going to listen to what my personal logic is telling me.

[Randy]

I don't think anything needs to be removed Kaz. You haven't said anything most out there aren't at least thinking. And 1dmf is 100% correct on the insinuation I would imagine everyone is reading into the press release. I certainly read it as being something Google was able to trace back to a known Gov't IP range. Though in this case I sort of doubt Google are doing that for the reasons that might be ascribed to them for hinting at something but not flat out saying it.

Truth is there are some significant cultural differences. And frankly if they wanted to rescue something out of Google.cn they probably went too far with just the insinuation. Though if they didn't say something like that there would be even more difficult questions being asked at the 'Plex.

[OldWelshGuy]

China has absolutely no human rights (other than for those in positions of power and still in favour). It was always a marriage made in hell, and untill there is a popular uprising and change of gevernment we can expect things to stay the same. If we have revolution, then there will be civil war as old tribalisms surface.

Google ahs done the right thing, Y! has backed them, so that seems good.

[1dmf]

and untill there is a popular uprising and change of gevernment we can expect things to stay the same

if only it was that simple. try asking your local chinese take away if they love chairman mao, or chinese people you meet when on vacation, they all seem to say 'yes'.

They also seem to get upset when you ask 'why?', i don't know if it's a fear thing, or what, but as long as the chinese people continue to love dictator tyrants such as mao, thinks aren't likely to change much.

No matter what other county's think, you cannot change another country's regime or mindset, just because you believe a way to be right, the people of the country have to want it to change, and while the few who do protest are simply run over by tanks and the western world just tut's and shakes its head, things will continue much the way they always have for China.

And as the US keep finding out, you cannot win the hearts and minds of a suppressed people with M16's and smart bombs!

You can only have a revolution or civil war if enough people are willing to fight and possibly die for their cause, i'm not so sure there are that many in China willing to do so, and with what?

It's certaily a difficult one, and as Randy points out, there is such a big cultural diference, we can't possibly think we can even try to understand it, let alone change it. Well not in my lifetime that's for sure!