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Keyword Phrases


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48 replies to this topic

#16 adibranch

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Posted 30 May 2009 - 09:16 AM

okay thanks.. where did you check? we know it penalises for uppercase page titles, ie shouting your site to the searcher above other sites, so it must be able to tell the difference.

#17 mal4mac

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Posted 30 May 2009 - 09:40 AM

QUOTE(adibranch @ May 30 2009, 10:16 AM) View Post
okay thanks.. where did you check? we know it penalises for uppercase page titles, ie shouting your site to the searcher above other sites, so it must be able to tell the difference.


Are you sure about upper case page titles? Can you offer proof of this?

I have some uppercase page titles that are not doing very well, but it might be something else!


#18 Jill

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Posted 30 May 2009 - 09:54 AM

QUOTE
we know it penalises for uppercase page titles


We do? I certainly don't know that!

QUOTE
where did you check?


I haven't checked in ages, but just do some searches with upper case and some with lower case and see if the results are different. There have been times when they are, but typically they're not.

AltaVista was the only engine I remember that truly was case sensitive. (ALL CAP TITLES used to work great with them back in the day!)

#19 BBCoach

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Posted 30 May 2009 - 10:56 AM

QUOTE
Last I checked, Google wasn't case sensitive.
Really? Wasn't there a G patent explaining the importance of weighting words based on capitalization and how important it is to the ranking algo? I know. I'm being snarky again. I'm sorry.

#20 Randy

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Posted 30 May 2009 - 10:56 AM

There you go again.

Seriously, unless you're going to actually test you need to stop spouting theories.

QUOTE
Yet, can you say for 100% absolute positive certainty that it doesnt take capitalised words into effect? no.. neither can i.


How about 99.99%?

I've had a number of search engine tests running for the better part of a decade, mainly because others were spouting crazy theories like this. Not that crazy theories are a bad thing mind you. I've had dozens myself. The difference is that I actually test the theory rather than saying it works, doesn't work or even may work based upon what may seem like common sense. Bottom line -- Capitalization makes no difference to the search engines. I've tested it personally multiple times and in fact still have 3 such tests running. No change in many, many years.

QUOTE
we know it penalises for uppercase page titles


Again, just plain wrong. If you're going to say it, please test it first. It's not that difficult to do.

That's not to say all caps isn't bad form for users, but that has nothing to do with the search engines or more specifically search engine penalties.

As an aside I have about 50 conversion tests that tell me ALL CAPS even in a headline turns off users. It's funny the little things that can affect users. My average on all of those tests is that by using the exact same headline in mixed case instead of all caps yields an approximately 80% yield. No effect on the search engines, but there is a very definite effect where real people are concerned.

#21 adibranch

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Posted 30 May 2009 - 01:54 PM

I have tested, in the same way you have.. so we got different results, but that just means there are too many variables involved. On here, I offer opinions based on findings, and i state where possible that thats is exactly what they are. I cannot see why you have a problem with this if i'm honest. Are you not open minded enough to consider ideas other than your own?

Like you i'm sure, i do this every day, every month, for clients, and for myself. I test, and i experiment, and if it appears that one thing may work consistently, then i will suggest other people try it. But, i still stand by the fact that no one knows exactly how it all works beyond good educated guesses. I cant believe anyone thinks they know 99.99 % of exactly what occurs.

Edited by adibranch, 30 May 2009 - 02:06 PM.


#22 Randy

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Posted 30 May 2009 - 04:38 PM

I beg to differ. If we tested in the same manner you'd be able to say things with reasonable certainty. Statistical validity is your friend, or at least it's mine. wink1.gif

If you actually set up legitimate tests you wouldn't be saying I believe or I think about many of the things that end up being [url=http://www.highrankings.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=15499]Seo Myths[/url]. Sure there are some things that cannot be reliably tested to reach a statistically valid result because of interfering factors. And there are tests where interpretations can differ because the tests were different enough or because there are too many things at work that might be having an effect on the data, including of course Noise factors. Neither of the things you've said in this thread, eg all capped titles causing a Penalty or capping each first letter of a keyword phrase improving rankings, fall anywhere near this pile of untestable elements. Those two are laughably easy to prove and disprove via valid testing procedures.

Go ahead, set up a very simple test page and control exactly what link or links point to it. Put a mixed case <title> and give it a couple months to get a ranking range. Then change it to all caps, changing nothing else, and watch it over a couple of months again. If you see any movement (or even if you don't) change it back to the original and track it for another couple of months. Wash, rinse, repeat. You'll know exactly what effect it has, if any, within a year. Or if you want to get a little crazier and get more data faster, put similar test pages up on 10 or 20 domains and track them all at the same time, half with all caps and half without to start off. I guarantee you the all caps <title> pages will not be penalized. Do it 50 times with different phrases, where you're controlling all external and noise factors, and you'll get the exact same results.

FTR I don't have a problem with difference of opinion. I don't have a problem with difference in test results as long as the tests are both being run in a way that is valid and provide a basis for further testing and greater understanding. I do however have a problem with people stating something, leading everyone reading along to believe something is true or may be true when it's patently false. Worse is expecting not to get called on it.

This sort of thing may works at other SEO forums. It doesn't here. Hasn't ever worked here since several of us are constantly testing and questioning everything. Even our own long-held beliefs.

#23 mal4mac

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Posted 31 May 2009 - 04:31 AM

QUOTE(BBCoach @ May 30 2009, 11:56 AM) View Post
Really? Wasn't there a G patent explaining the importance of weighting words based on capitalization and how important it is to the ranking algo? I know. I'm being snarky again. I'm sorry.


Doesn't look snarky to me. Useful input! Capitals don't look good, they are the equivalent of shouting. It seems reasonable that Google should penalise them.

Then again, if you are getting a bad response from a page, AND HAVE TRIED EVERYTHING ELSE, THEN you might try shouting...

#24 Jill

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Posted 31 May 2009 - 08:49 AM

QUOTE(bbcoach)
Wasn't there a G patent explaining the importance of weighting words based on capitalization and how important it is to the ranking algo?


QUOTE(mal4mac)
Doesn't look snarky to me. Useful input! Capitals don't look good, they are the equivalent of shouting. It seems reasonable that Google should penalise them.


For the record, I think bbcoach was kidding about the patent. Thus the "snarky" comment.

Unless someone has heard of such a patent. I never have though.

#25 BBCoach

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Posted 31 May 2009 - 11:13 AM

QUOTE
Doesn't look snarky to me. Useful input! Capitals don't look good, they are the equivalent of shouting. It seems reasonable that Google should penalise them.
omg.gif! I was being Sarcastic, Snarky and/or a Smart-arse! There has never been such a patent. I made it up.

See how easy it is to mislead adibranch without even trying? I haven't conducted the tests that Randy was telling you to do since around 2000, and don't plan on doing so again because I know capitalization is a non-issue with rankings. Simple to prove by doing what Jill suggested doing.
QUOTE
I haven't checked in ages, but just do some searches with upper case and some with lower case and see if the results are different. There have been times when they are, but typically they're not.


#26 Jill

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Posted 31 May 2009 - 11:17 AM

QUOTE
I was being Sarcastic, Snarky and/or a Smart-arse! There has never been such a patent. I made it up.


Yeah, when I saw that quoted I thought...oh god, another seo myth is about to be spread--and from this forum no less!

Which is why I clarified that you were kidding!

Cuz we all know if it was said on the internet it must be true!

#27 mal4mac

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Posted 31 May 2009 - 12:17 PM

QUOTE(Jill @ May 31 2009, 09:49 AM) View Post
For the record, I think bbcoach was kidding about the patent. Thus the "snarky" comment.

Unless someone has heard of such a patent. I never have though.


Didn't get the joke at all - probably a pond thing...


#28 adibranch

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Posted 02 June 2009 - 07:25 AM

QUOTE(mal4mac @ May 31 2009, 04:31 AM) View Post
See how easy it is to mislead adibranch without even trying?


umm hang on.. i dont recall responding to this in the slightest.

Looki, before anyone attacks me again.. this is the point : Everyone THINKS they know exactly what goes on .. and if you do think that, you're deluded.
Randy, yes i've done capitilisation tests, yes i've seen differences. Unfortunately , as you rightly state, nothing is conclusive due to too many variables being involved.. not just on the test site, but other factors come in to play, such as competitor movements for one.
Capitilisation on keywords, in context , is natural in the copy. Its natural to the reader, and ergo it may carry importance. I'm not saying it carries a huge amount of weight, of course it doesnt, not on it its own. I'm not going to argue it any more, and i'm certainly not going to stop doing it.
Its strange that everyone is stating that i cannot prove it, yet no one can prove otherwise.. can they.

Edited by adibranch, 02 June 2009 - 07:34 AM.


#29 adibranch

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Posted 02 June 2009 - 07:54 AM

QUOTE(Randy @ May 30 2009, 04:38 PM) View Post
Go ahead, set up a very simple test page and control exactly what link or links point to it. Put a mixed case <title> and give it a couple months to get a ranking range. Then change it to all caps, changing nothing else, and watch it over a couple of months again. If you see any movement (or even if you don't) change it back to the original and track it for another couple of months.


I'm trying to answer these as politely as i can (not that i'm getting that back from some).

I've already done this test. Two client sites had their category terms in uppercase. All products and categories were displayed this way in the serps. Changed all categories on one site to normal case Did nothing else that month. Six weeks later results were favourable, across 80% of pages and with minimal but noticeable increases. The 20% remaining pages dropped or stayed the same, as they do in any results.
2nd Site, same thing, same results.

Lets think about this logically before anyone flames it again WITH AN OPEN MIND. A page of the top ten results for a given term are displayed, yet one, say in fifth position, has all uppercase titles. This IS SHOUTING THE RESULT TO THE VISITOR, their eye is drawn to it as yours just has been to that phrase. Ergo, instant advantage in the results. Even though you're in a lesser position than your competitors, you've just pinched their attention, and cheated the system.
Now, if this practice went unnoticed by the search engine provider, everyone would soon pick up on it. All sites would slowly start doing it, and soon we'd have a results page full of uppercase titles.

To not penalise for this to some degree, is leaving the system wide open. If anyone wants to come up with an argument to this, FACTS if you have them, OPINIONS if you dont, but please be sure to state which is which. Mine, is an opinion.

#30 BBCoach

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Posted 02 June 2009 - 10:21 AM

QUOTE
adibranch - I'm trying to answer these as politely as i can (not that i'm getting that back from some).
Take a chill pill. No one here has attacked you, flamed you or insulted you for that matter. Randy is telling you FACT and not his opinion. I agree with him 100%. And if you'd run the test Jill spoke about, then you'd see that all-caps, mixed-case or lower-case queries all return the same results. Try [solar energy] at G, Y, & M in the different cases. I can't get the SERPs to change (same listing each time).

BTW, if you have a query that does return different results based on case, then I'd like to see it because I've tried hundreds of queries and cannot get a different SERP listing.

QUOTE
umm hang on.. i dont recall responding to this in the slightest.
It didn't require you to respond. I was simply pointing out how easy it is to start SEO rumors, even when not trying to.




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