Jump to content

  • Log in with Facebook Log in with Twitter Log In with Google      Sign In   
  • Create Account

Subscribe to HRA Now!

 



Are you a Google Analytics enthusiast?

Share and download Custom Google Analytics Reports, dashboards and advanced segments--for FREE! 

 



 

 www.CustomReportSharing.com 

From the folks who brought you High Rankings!



Photo
- - - - -

Internal Pr Juice & Pr Sculpting


  • Please log in to reply
42 replies to this topic

Poll: Internal PR & PR Sculpting (10 member(s) have cast votes)

Do internal links carry less PR than external links

  1. Yes (1 votes [10.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 10.00%

  2. No (5 votes [50.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 50.00%

  3. Don't Know (4 votes [40.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 40.00%

Can you perform PR sculpting with the rel='nofollow' attribute

  1. Yes (6 votes [60.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 60.00%

  2. No (2 votes [20.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 20.00%

  3. Don't Know (2 votes [20.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 20.00%

Is PR sculpting considered 'Black Hat'

  1. Yes (1 votes [10.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 10.00%

  2. No (7 votes [70.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 70.00%

  3. Don't Know (2 votes [20.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 20.00%

Vote Guests cannot vote

#1 NASA

NASA

    HR 4

  • Active Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 183 posts

Posted 16 April 2009 - 09:23 AM

Ok, I looked through the pinned thread, got bored and confused after page 6... but the debate seems to indicate that PR sculpting is possible with internal links allthough arguable over worth while use of your time!

What I would like is a simple YES/NO/DONT KNOW to the following three questions, so we can sort the wheat from the chaff as the pinned thread is 120 replies and counting. infact i'm going to add a poll to make it easier to sum the answers

Q1 - Do internal links carry less PR than external (assuming the external page has the same PR as the internal page that was linking).

Q2 - Can you perform PR Sculpting with the rel='nofollow' attribute?

Q3 - If PR sculpting is possible , is it considered blackhat.gif



#2 Jill

Jill

    Recovering SEO

  • Admin
  • 33,004 posts

Posted 16 April 2009 - 11:18 AM

IMO, you're not asking the right questions. Of course you CAN sculpt PR via nofollow, but the real question should be is it worth your time.

And no, it's of course not blackhat because Matt Cutts himself has gone on record as saying it's a valid use of nofollow.

Personally, I think it's a waste of time, but that said, I haven't tried it myself so I could be completely wrong.

#3 Michael Martinez

Michael Martinez

    HR 10

  • Active Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,157 posts
  • Location:Georgia

Posted 16 April 2009 - 12:38 PM

You're right Jill. Anyone can blindly sculpt PR flow with rel='nofollow'. In fact, everyone who is attempting to sculpt PR flow IS doing it blindly, since there is no way to measure internal PageRank flow -- much less do it in real-time.



#4 NASA

NASA

    HR 4

  • Active Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 183 posts

Posted 16 April 2009 - 02:15 PM

QUOTE
IMO, you're not asking the right questions.
how do you mean?

time is relative and so is effort. If I have the time and it takes 'me' , little effort to perform a task, it all becomes relative. It may take someone else a lot more effort to do something, it would take me alot of effort to pick up an atlas stone, but the strong men make it look easy. It's all relative.

I can see a real world application to PR sculpting, especially on certain pages where you specifically want to boost a linked page with all PR and not share it amoungst your 'about us' , 'contact us' and other superflous links which may be on the page. I couldn't care what PR my WC3 accessibility info page has, infact i'd like it to have none, and have my 'real' pages gain more juice. well to me it makes perfect sense. but YMMV.

I'm personally sceptical about internal and external links carrying same weight, them being different makes more sense as surely some complete stranger 'voting' for your site carries more weight, than me 'voting' for myself.

even GWMT separates internal links from external, which to me adds more milage to the argument or confuses it, again YMMV. which is why personaly I will find the poll results interesting smile.gif

#5 torka

torka

    Vintage Babe

  • Moderator
  • 4,636 posts
  • Location:Triangle area, NC, USA, Earth (usually)

Posted 16 April 2009 - 04:03 PM

How can you "sculpt" something you can neither count nor measure? How do you know your "sculpting" is even working, when you don't know -- and cannot ever know, unless you figure out how to hack into the Googleplex -- what the real PR is for any page of your site, nor do you know how much PR that page is allowed to pass in total, nor do you know how much PR is assigned to any given link from that page, nor can you clearly and definitively associate the alleged "sculpting" with any results that could not equally well be explained by some non-sculpting process?

In other words, how do you know the whole thing isn't a colossal waste of time -- or worse?

--Torka mf_prop.gif

#6 NASA

NASA

    HR 4

  • Active Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 183 posts

Posted 17 April 2009 - 04:59 AM

QUOTE
In other words, how do you know the whole thing isn't a colossal waste of time -- or worse?


Well for the purpose i shall be applying it, it won't be a waste of time, this site is for a friend who saved my life, so any amount of time I spend on it will not be considered wasted wink1.gif , what's your life worth?

But that's putting a personal slant on things, which doesn't help the argument!

What do you beleive the 'worse' could be, are you now saying that any use of the rel='nofollow' attribute could have a detrimental / harmfull effect to your site? If that's the case then the argument should be never ever use it no matter what G! says, if it can do harm!

OK PR is not measurable, but if G! can guarantee adding a nofollow to a footer link to a superflous page will ensure no PR whatsoever is passed to that page, the amounts involved is irrelivant, it's not the amount i'm trying to sculpt, well unless you call ZERO an amount, are you a half full or half empty person?

However minute the amount of PR I manage to 'save' so to speak, in the immortal words of Tesco Supermarket "Every Little Helps" wink1.gif



#7 Michael Martinez

Michael Martinez

    HR 10

  • Active Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,157 posts
  • Location:Georgia

Posted 17 April 2009 - 04:40 PM

You cannot improve any page's search visibility by hiding other pages. Thus, one aspect of Torka's "worse" is that you're making it harder for people to find pages on your site.

And don't be so quick to label any pages as "unimportant". There should be no unimportant pages on a Web site. Virtually every major incidental Web page (contact us, about us, privacy policy, partners, etc.) has been critical to one or more legal decisions and in some states (usually California but not always) or countries may be mandated by law.

If users cannot find these pages through whatever means of navigation is normal for them, a site may find itself on the losing side of a class-action suit. That has already happened.

You may think most people are using your navbar to find stuff, but if you offer site search many people use that and many people also use major search engines in place of navbars and site search to find content on Web sites.

So trying to "sculpt" PageRank is not only a colossal waste of time, it lowers the quality of the user experience.

There is absolutely no SEO value in attempting to do this and certainly no business reason to do it. There are, in fact, both SEO and business reasons NOT to do it.

#8 NASA

NASA

    HR 4

  • Active Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 183 posts

Posted 17 April 2009 - 10:05 PM

QUOTE
And don't be so quick to label any pages as "unimportant". There should be no unimportant pages on a Web site.
I agree with this sentiment but this
QUOTE
You may think most people are using your navbar to find stuff, but if you offer site search many people use that and many people also use major search engines in place of navbars and site search to find content on Web sites
is relative.

I'm not trying to hide a page and as the page is available from every page on the website via the footer link, it's available to anyone who finds the site. The point is; that isn't the page i want them to find the site by via any form of SERPs, just be available to them when they do visit!

No law could prosecute you for that surely?

In a way no different than the post wanting to control which pages are listed in the 'site links' section of Google search.

Edited by NASA, 17 April 2009 - 10:10 PM.


#9 Jill

Jill

    Recovering SEO

  • Admin
  • 33,004 posts

Posted 18 April 2009 - 08:25 AM

So here's what I don't get about the alleged pros of PR sculpting:

Those policy and contact us pages that many people lop off with their sculpting knives, ALL LINK BACK TO THE IMPORTANT PAGES via their main navigation.

Why would anyone want to lose that passing of link juice?

I feel like I must be missing some key element to the argument, because it just makes no sense to me. Perhaps someone can fill me in on what I'm missing and it will suddenly click.

Or perhaps my argument is the basic fallacy in the whole PR sculpting debate?

#10 Ron Carnell

Ron Carnell

    HR 6

  • Moderator
  • 966 posts
  • Location:Michigan USA

Posted 18 April 2009 - 01:23 PM

QUOTE
Torka: In other words, how do you know the whole thing isn't a colossal waste of time -- or worse?

You don't, Diane. You can't. And, of course, that's equally true when you change a title tag on a page or get a new link from an important source.

You can't accurately measure ANY optimization effort. Realistically, you can't assign a number to a page title, to anchor text, to an inbound link. And, as you say, you can't clearly and definitively associate any SEO effort with results that could not equally well be explained by some non-SEO process. Everything we do is a guess, an estimate, an inference, some perhaps better than others, but none scientifically proven facts.

We're all flying by the seat of our pants. Every day. Ain't it great? smile.gif

QUOTE
Michael Martinez: You cannot improve any page's search visibility by hiding other pages.

Of course you can, Michael. If I could hide a few billion pages, leaving only my own pages in Google's index, I'm pretty sure that would improve my page's visibility? I wouldn't need to hide that many, though. Just a few thousand would be enough. You know, like all my competitor's? smile.gif

Of course, I know that's not what you meant, but preemptive generalities like yours can't be any more convincing than they are accurate. Clearly, on a macro scale, removing pages from the search index must increase the visibility of the remaining pages in the search index. You haven't shown us why you believe that wouldn't also be true on a micro scale?

QUOTE
Jill: Those policy and contact us pages that many people lop off with their sculpting knives, ALL LINK BACK TO THE IMPORTANT PAGES via their main navigation.

Why would anyone want to lose that passing of link juice?

Ah, finally a meaningful observation on PR sculpting! smile.gif

Imagine a typical site architecture:

Site A: Main Page -> Category Page -> Sub-category -> Product

Let's say, for the sake of argument, that all external links into the site point to the main page. In the absence of deep links, the highest PR is obviously going to be on the Main Page. It's going to pass a portion of its PR (minus damping) down to the Category Page, giving the Category Page the second highest PR in the site. Make sense so far?

Just for the heck of it, let's go off on a short tangent. What if the Main Page linked directly to one of the Sub-category pages? As far as a search engine is concerned, that sub-category page would then become just as "important" as a Category page. Right?

However, of course, that's not what we normally see. Instead, the Category Page links to its own sub-category pages and those sub-category pages, in turn, link to the individual product pages.

All of the PR started at the Main Page in our hypothetical site. Every click away from the main page, every subsequent link, lowers the PR of the target page. A Category Page has less PR than the Main Page, a Sub-category Page has less PR than its own Category Page, and the downhill Product pages all have less PR than the Sub-category Page above it. All of this, I think, is so obvious it hardly even bears mentioning?

This is an example of natural PR sculpting.

Less obvious, but directly correlating to Jill's astute observation, is the fact that the chain of PR flows uphill, too.

The Product pages probably link only to their own Sub-category page, not to all Sub-category pages, but other than that (which is one reason why flattening a hierarchy can sometimes improve rankings), ALL the pages on the site probably link to the Main Page and the highest Category Pages. That uphill linking, of course, reinforces the importance of the important pages.

Simply by organizing the site in a natural manner, the architecture has created a perfect balance between importance and relevance. The Main Page is going to be comparatively important, but is going to be relevant only for the more generic searches. The Product pages are going to be much less important, but will likely be highly relevant for long-tail searches. In my opinion, this kind of symmetry is EXACTLY what modern search engine optimization is all about. It's always a balance between importance and relevance.

Let's imagine a different site architecture:

Site B: Main Page -> Product pages

Must be a pretty small site, right? Here, we have the Main Page directly linking to all of the Product pages. And all of the Product pages, of course, will link back to the Main Page. In this very flat site hierarchy, PR will also be flat. The Main Page will be the highest, but every other page will be the same.

And if all the Product pages also linked to each other? Now, that's really a small site! In this case, every page on the site, including the Main Page, will have essentially the same PR as every other page on the site, any difference being almost too small to measure. We've flattened the PR distribution just as much as possible.

What if Site A and Site B were competing with each other for SE rankings? Given the same inbound links to the Main Page for each site, what should we expect to see?

Site A has a much higher PR on its Main Page than Site B, so would probably show up well in the SERPs for more generic search terms. On the other hand, the individual Product pages on Site B will have a higher PR than their counterparts on Site A (because they're closer to their Main Page), so will likely out-rank them on more specific, long-tail searches. I think a large part of SEO strategy (as opposed to tactics) is deciding where you want a particular page to sit on this PR continuum.

Most real web sites, today, combine the characteristics of Site A and Site B.

The majority of Terminus Pages, where additional clicks can only go uphill (Product pages in our earlier examples), sit at the bottom of a hierarchy. And that, in my opinion, is the way it should be. But there's usually a few Terminus Pages, like that ubiquitous Privacy or Contact Us page, that don't fit within a hierarchy. I think of these as "flat" pages. Every page on the site probably links to the Privacy page, and of course, the Privacy page links back to the Main Page and likely the main Category pages as well. Just like Jill said. The PR rolls downhill (like an avalanche, in fact), and then is pumped back uphill to the most important pages. And that, too, in my opinion, is the way it should be.

Here's the potential rub.

Site B is flatter than Site A. That's a given. By the same logic, however, we can unequivocally say that any combination of Site A and Site B is going to also be flatter than Site A (though not as flat as Site B ). Some people don't like that. Some people think that every site should represent a perfect hierarchy, which will inevitably lead to natural PR sculpting.

In the absence of that perfection, they want to resort to unnatural PR sculpting. smile.gif

So, Jill, the answer to your question is yea, they're giving up some important uphill flow of PR when they hide their Privacy and Contact pages. You and I give up that same uphill flow, however, every time we organize a site into a hierarchy. Usually, we think it's worth it.

Removing a "flat" page, like Privacy or Contact, from the site architecture will, with mathematical certainty, increase the importance of uphill pages (like the Main page and probably Category pages). In almost every single case I've seen, the PR increase will be negligible. The formula for calculating PR is a reiterative summation of a probability distribution curve and is not easily influenced by small changes like removing one or two downhill pages from a large site. Nonetheless, horse races are won by noses not lengths, so even a negligible increase in PR is not without some meaning.

I think it has to be up to the individual whether "some meaning" is worth "some effort." smile.gif

For what it's worth, I've personally always been able to find better ways to spend my time than trying to fine-tune the distribution of PR within a site. That was true back circa 1999, when Page Rank could have a profound impact on rankings, and it's certainly true in 2009, when the impact of Page Rank seems to be far more diffuse and indirect. I think creating a site architecture that leads to natural PR sculpting is important. If I had more than a handful of "flat" pages, I would restructure the site if I could to squeeze them into a hierarchy. Removing a few pages from the flow of PR, however, for me, isn't worth even the time to think about it.

And it's certainly not worth the time to write so damn much about it. smile.gif

Edited by Ron Carnell, 18 April 2009 - 01:29 PM.


#11 Jill

Jill

    Recovering SEO

  • Admin
  • 33,004 posts

Posted 18 April 2009 - 02:23 PM

Wow, thanks for that explanation, Ron. I don't often carefully read long posts (cuz I get lost!), but I read that one very carefully, and I believe I understand and agree with all that you said.

Very well put!

#12 Active

Active

    HR 1

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 1 posts

Posted 18 April 2009 - 03:10 PM



Michael I was going to reply to your first post but I decided to read everyone else that had posted a response to this poll but after reading this one I had to respond. You say Y
QUOTE
ou cannot improve any page's search visibility by hiding other pages
you speak as if its a matter of fact, a definitive answer so I'm wondering where you got your information because from what I understand this topic is still argued by the best in the business some use this method others do not and the kicker, unless there's a written guide published by the search engine you're targeting these tactics are all theory. Moreover, when you use a rel="nofollow" you're not hiding pages the reason I mention this is your second point is based on that statement.

You go on to mention that
QUOTE
Virtually every major incidental Web page (contact us, about us, privacy policy, partners, etc.) has been critical to one or more legal decisions and in some states (usually California but not always) or countries may be mandated by law. If users cannot find these pages through whatever means of navigation is normal for them, a site may find itself on the losing side of a class-action suit. That has already happened.
this is a usability issue, not a rel="nofollow" issue.

Lastly, you mention
QUOTE
There is absolutely no SEO value in attempting to do this and certainly no business reason to do it. There are, in fact, both SEO and business reasons NOT to do it.
again, I'm sure there's tons of new and seasoned internet marketers in the High Rankings Forum so it might be wise to advise from a passive perspective rather then from concrete statements unless you can provide the premises to back it.

#13 NASA

NASA

    HR 4

  • Active Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 183 posts

Posted 19 April 2009 - 06:25 AM

QUOTE
Jill: Those policy and contact us pages that many people lop off with their sculpting knives, ALL LINK BACK TO THE IMPORTANT PAGES via their main navigation.

Why would anyone want to lose that passing of link juice?


QUOTE
Ah, finally a meaningful observation on PR sculpting!


Jill / Ron , I see your merit in this.

I can also see the argument of 'wasting time' , but if we were talking about someone retrospectively applying 'nofollow' to a well established site with thousands of pages, then yes perhaps you are wasting your time.

But what about being armed with PR sculpting knowlege at the outset of a site creation, applying it as you write the site would take no more effort than wrting the HTML to start with, no different than the way my code has improved and my coding practices as I came more proficient and skilled in the DOM & W3C standards.

Also most of my sites are from 5-10 pages, hardly much effort to apply PR sculpting too.

What I needed to know was does PR scultping work, the resounding answer seems to be yes. How you use it and the results you achieve is relative and like any wrong use of an element or attribute, if not used wisely can have a detrimental effect, no different than writing a bad page title or not knowing the title tag is so important to SEO.

but the argument still stands that I cannot see a use of having the privacty page or W3C page even indexed! and doing so is wasting valuable PR.

So let me put it another way, if I excluded it with a robots.txt file, would that achieve the same thing? therefore does using a robots.txt file actually perform PR sculpting without people realising it or calling it that? even if a bi-product.

I am interested in this uphill PR , but question how much PR it gives uphill when it recieves none or little downhill? so any uphill PR passed is relative to the downhill PR given surely.

and seings as uphill PR is diluted from it being a downhill page, the downhill PR passed to the page will not be the same amount of PR passed uphill, so why waste the downhill PR in the first place?

#14 Randy

Randy

    Convert Me!

  • Moderator
  • 17,540 posts

Posted 19 April 2009 - 09:57 AM

QUOTE(NASA)
I can also see the argument of 'wasting time' , but if we were talking about someone retrospectively applying 'nofollow' to a well established site with thousands of pages, then yes perhaps you are wasting your time.

But what about being armed with PR sculpting knowlege at the outset of a site creation, applying it as you write the site would take no more effort than wrting the HTML to start with, no different than the way my code has improved and my coding practices as I came more proficient and skilled in the DOM & W3C standards.

Also most of my sites are from 5-10 pages, hardly much effort to apply PR sculpting too.


You've got it a bit backwards there NASA, which IMHO is the real danger behind the way most are thinking about PR Sculpting.

The one place where it might be somewhat useful is if you manage a large site. This means usually more than mere thousands, but 10's of thousands of pages. Those are the sites that get confusing for the search engines and users alike and where PR Sculpting via nofollow can help give the search engines an indication of which pages you consider to be the most important, regardless of the internal linking structure.

With smaller sites there's just not enough gain to even bother.

In essence the issue is not whether PR Sculpting via nofollow is sorely misunderstood and misapplied. That's why it's dangerous.

#15 Jill

Jill

    Recovering SEO

  • Admin
  • 33,004 posts

Posted 19 April 2009 - 10:45 AM

QUOTE
But what about being armed with PR sculpting knowlege at the outset of a site creation, applying it as you write the site would take no more effort than wrting the HTML to start with, no different than the way my code has improved and my coding practices as I came more proficient and skilled in the DOM & W3C standards.


The thing is, if you're designing the site from scratch, just do the site hierarchy right and you won't need to sculpt it. Sculpting is mostly necessary if you can't redo your site architecture the way it should have been done.




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users

SPAM FREE FORUM!
 
If you are just registering to spam,
don't bother. You will be wasting your
time as your spam will never see the
light of day!