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Page Title Question


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62 replies to this topic

#31 1dmf

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Posted 28 May 2009 - 10:53 AM

QUOTE
if it was a bug, it wouldnt cause what we're seeing today, ie homepage above landing page, two results in serps, same site.
No that's not what mean, I mean changing a single alt attribute and it having such a drastic effect.

I thought the whole point of SEO is you need more than a simple tweek of an alt atttribute to make a dramatic effect in SERPs.

Or are the SEO's holding back on the secret sauce again, or just merely drinking it drunk.gif

#32 qwerty

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Posted 28 May 2009 - 11:23 AM

It depends on the level of competition. If that alt attribute is some combination of characters that doesn't appear anywhere else on any document in the search engine's index, then your one instance of it is going to be at the top of the results of a search on it.

#33 copywriter

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Posted 28 May 2009 - 11:37 AM

adibranch , it seems like you're talking strictly about large, ecommerce sites. Is that the case? If so, I might agree that terms that are more on the generic side belong on the home page and then you get more specific with keywords as you move to the category and product pages. However, this does not hold true for every type of website. There are many more formats that are not large ecommerce and that would need specific keywords on their home pages.

There are millions of small business sites out there that:

> sell a single software product
> sell a single book or ebook
> generate leads for a specific product/company/offer
> offer 1 service - whatever it might be: lawn maintenance, house painting, tax returns, etc.)

There are countless other examples, too.

Thank you for saying that - while this works for you - it might not work for everybody. I wouldn't want any newbies to think this was the way they HAD to structure their keyword/copywriting plan then fall flat on their faces because it doesn't work for their type of site.

#34 adibranch

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Posted 28 May 2009 - 12:18 PM

yes you're right, generic homepage theming is industry/term/site specific to some sites, but not all. So please, nonbody apply this withouth thinking about it first.

But, the technical theory behind the home page issue is the same (and we've gone off topic a bit because of this, sorry). A deep page can be matched to a term, but the home page will be listed in the index IF that home page contains even one mention of the targeted pages terms.

QUOTE
No that's not what mean, I mean changing a single alt attribute and it having such a drastic effect.

I thought the whole point of SEO is you need more than a simple tweek of an alt atttribute to make a dramatic effect in SERPs.

Or are the SEO's holding back on the secret sauce again, or just merely drinking it


sorry, its not easy to explain myself sometimes. What i mean is that when a deep page gets matched to a request, it is possible for the homepage to be returned in the serps INSTEAD of the matched page purely because it contains one mention of that term. Remove that one mention of the term (even if it is in alts), and you remove the problem. Granted this is exxtreme, but in certain situations its the only solution to the landing page problem which were seeing. If having the homepage returned as your landing page (in a lower position) isnt a problem to you, or you're happy with two pages from your site being returned incorrectly, then dont worry about it. Personally to me though this is a fail, it removes control , and means more clickthroughs to the visitor, increasing drop off rate.

#35 1dmf

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Posted 28 May 2009 - 12:48 PM

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and means more clickthroughs to the visitor, increasing drop off rate.
I can see your point on that score!

I like the idea of two bites of the cherry as Jill says, and it also leaves the visitor to make a descision which link apeals to them the most and so hopefully change from being a search into a visit!

But if the home page is detracting from the visitors search, because what they searched for is offering a homepage which isn't directly associated to their search term, where as the correct landing page is... yes i can see how this can cause an issue especially with bounce rates etc..

I still think it's crazy if the SE ranks a page for a keyword higher than better matching pages purely because the the non-kwd specific page (be it the home or any other) has a higher PR forcing it to rank better for any old word on the page!

That's not giving visitors target results in the SERPs and me thinks your algo needs changing! lol.gif

#36 BBCoach

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Posted 28 May 2009 - 01:00 PM

QUOTE
But, the technical theory behind the home page issue is the same (and we've gone off topic a bit because of this, sorry). A deep page can be matched to a term, but the home page will be listed in the index IF that home page contains even one mention of the targeted pages terms.
I've never seen the home page come up listed with one of our product pages. When it occurs it's always two similar but different products. And yes, the home page has all of the general key words that would make it come up according to what you said. I don't see this.

#37 adibranch

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Posted 28 May 2009 - 02:36 PM

it doesnt normally apply to product pages, as these generally have much more specific terms searched for , and product page terms are longtail terms do not seem to be affected as much.
But, how many times have you seen your category pages returned instead of your product pages for a product specific term? its the same effect just on different pages.

#38 Randy

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Posted 28 May 2009 - 02:46 PM

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But, how many times have you seen your category pages returned instead of your product pages for a product specific term? its the same effect just on different pages.


You seem to be skipping the part link popularity plays in the ranking equation.

It doesn't necessarily have to be this way, but for most sites the home page is going to have more link pop than the 2nd level pages, and the 2nd level (category type) pages are going to have more link pop than the product pages at the 3rd or 4th level. Thus if those pages are associated with the search term, even if the only real association is the anchor text on that higher level page linking to a lower level page, chances are more likely than not that the higher level page will rank a bit better.

The way to combat this, if you feel the need, is to pump up the link popularity of the deeper level product pages either through getting them more on target links from external sites or reworking your own internal linking structure.

#39 adibranch

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Posted 28 May 2009 - 03:13 PM

hi randy, although link poplualrity is associated and is the cause of the page returned, its not the reason for the position. Its not really what i'm getting at and i'm trying my best to explain it.
One mention of a term in an alt tag is not enough to place that page in the top 20 results for a competitive term, no one can argue with that, yet this is whats happening. My point is that the matching is done elsewhere in the site, yet the link popularity comes into effect and thus ranks the homepage instead. So, the landing page has done all the backstage work, but its the homepage that goes out into the public eye.
The effect of this is that the page is also listed lower than had this not happened.

Do some testing.. if you're seeing your home page returned with your landing page underneath, try removing the mentions of that search term from the home page, and see what happens.

Like i say, this is just results based on my findings.. it doesnt apply to everyone, but i'm positive that page matching is performed elsewhere on the site than what the results in the serps might indicate, and then overridden, as you say, by link popularity to a higher page. providing the more popular page carries that term at least once.
This is all my point is...

Edited by adibranch, 28 May 2009 - 04:26 PM.


#40 Randy

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Posted 28 May 2009 - 06:56 PM

QUOTE
The effect of this is that the page is also listed lower than had this not happened.


If I understand what you're saying, host crowding doesn't work that way.

Whichever page has been determined to rank higher ranks at its position. Then if there is a secondary page from the same domain that would show up in the same results set it gets slid into the indented position.

Hopefully I'm simply misunderstanding your consternation. But if you're suggesting that the dual listing ends up being lower because it goes by the position of the secondary listing that's just not the way it works.

#41 1dmf

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Posted 29 May 2009 - 04:49 AM

So Randy are you saying the same thing as I was thinking...

The PR of a generic page is helping it out rank the more kwd targeted page?

But you also seem to say G! realises this, and so DOESN'T downgrade your ranking as adibranch is suggesting and simply inlcudes both pages at the correct ranking and indents one of them?

#42 adibranch

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Posted 29 May 2009 - 05:20 AM

QUOTE(Randy @ May 28 2009, 06:56 PM) View Post
If I understand what you're saying, host crowding doesn't work that way.

Whichever page has been determined to rank higher ranks at its position. Then if there is a secondary page from the same domain that would show up in the same results set it gets slid into the indented position.

Hopefully I'm simply misunderstanding your consternation. But if you're suggesting that the dual listing ends up being lower because it goes by the position of the secondary listing that's just not the way it works.


no thats not what i'm saying.. Sorry this really is quite difficult to explain, and i keep trying to think of examples. Perhaps the following may clarify why i think this happens.

In the case of your post, i'm saying the exact opposite. What you're seeing with a dual listing is essentially a combination of two pages providing one result. Why? because it is not clear to google which page is better for the visitor. The matching page? or the more popular and proven higher (but less relevant) page? So, as an offset, it lists both.
When this happens, you are being downgraded in positions for this discrepancy. Does google want to list the top ten sites all with dual listings and let the visitor guess? or does it want to return one page from a site which is specific to the term the visitor searched for, and then list another site for them to look at. Which one do you think?
With dual listings, its not clear to anyone which is the page to go for, to google, to the visitor, anyone. SO, the listing has to resort to two page results. Ask yourself, if you were google, is this an ideal situation?

I'm not suggesting anybody take this as gospel for one minute, as with a lot of theories, its my opinion based on findings.

I'm assuming you all market multiple sites, or have test sites or something.. so why not try it? if you're getting a dual listing on a term, just remove all mentions of that term from the higher page, and see what happens. I'm not saying you will see the results i did, like i say, i'm just reporting my findings. We all know different people have different techniques for different sites.. and that what works on one may not work on another, but, just as an experiment, see what happens. I havent ran this test for over a year, i no longer need to, but theres nothing wrong with a bit of experimentation.

Of course , the other reason for doing this is still there regardless.. specific landing pages for specific terms yield better conversions... and thats my main reason for getting rid of this (what i see as a rather annoying) feature of dual google listings.

Edited by adibranch, 29 May 2009 - 05:59 AM.


#43 Prasanthi

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Posted 29 May 2009 - 05:51 AM

Hi Vanzist,

In the advanced SEO, Title tags not matters number of characters. If you put "n" number of characters but still search engines will take based on their limit only.


Whenever u put title tags in the home or inner pages you keep this in mind end user search term for your site. This is very important.

If you follow this properly u will definitely achieve.


Thanks,
Prasanthi


#44 Jill

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Posted 29 May 2009 - 07:30 AM

adibranch, I still can't get over the fact that you'd want to remove 2 listings for your site in the serp and make it 1. Thereby adding one more competitor listing to the mix.

That is the most amazingly strange thing I've heard on this forum as it runs counter to all that we do in SEO.

#45 1dmf

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Posted 29 May 2009 - 07:58 AM

So Jill have you ever managed to get all 10 slots on the 1st page of the SERPs?

Come I know you can do it smile.gif




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