62 replies to this topic

[BBCoach]

mal4mac - I disagree. You might write a general page on "casinos" that you hope will score for "online casinos" . You think the heading "Casinos" is all that is necessary. But surely you should think again and shoot for that keyword.

I don't quite understand what you're disagreeing with. What does length of title have to do with the content you either put in or leave out? If I were to write a title for an online casino, then I might say, "Big Toe Casino - The easiest to use online casino, the most secure online casino and the most honest online gambling casino web site in the world!" That's 147 characters counting spaces and the exclamation mark. Then the page content would definitely (not exclusively) include copy for how easy it is to use, gambling, security and how it's honest.

[El Jaybee]

Is the number of characters in the Title important to keyword density? If you had a Title with 70 characters and the word casino appeared once, it would equal about 9% of the title. If casino appeared once in 140 characters, it would be around 4%. On the other hand 140 characters with the word casino three times, would equate to about 13%.
Is this relevant?

[copywriter]

Keyword density ratios have not been a relevant measure of SEO copywriting success in over 5 years. Do not rely on keyword density ratios.

http://www.marketing....com/blog/?p=51

http://www.marketing....com/blog/?p=84

http://www.marketing...com/blog/?p=433

[rayjoy]

I couldn't disagree more with this statement. Home pages, more than any other page of a website typically see traffic from a wide variety of keyword phrases. I can't say that I've ever seen a home page only show up for one keyword phrase.

Use that to your advantage and optimize it for at least 3-5 phrases of your choice, if not more.

I have taken this advice - done it for years. What I am finding now - interesting enough, is that if I have the home page optimised for several phrases and also a separate page especially optimised for just ONE of those same phrases, then BOTH the home page and the other page show up in the search results... not EITHER OR, but BOTH, straight after one another. So this means I get TWO entries showing in the search results for the one keyword search by the user. This is not always the case however. I am trying to figure out WHY this should be the case in some instances and not others. Your thoughts on this?

[adibranch]

it goes beyond that ravjoy. If you include ONE mention of a term in your homepage, your homepage can be returned over your required landing page even when the landing page is the one that has essentially done all the 'matching' work.

So, someone does a search, and your deep page gets matched to term. Google also references a mention of that term on the homepage (it only needs to be ONE mention, and can be anywhere even in an alt tag). It then returns the homepage instead at a lower position than your landing page would have been. Even though its the deeper page that got matched, google would rather place the homepage in the results, as it carries more weight than your other pages.

Odd.. but it happens, and is similar to what you're seeing with the two results. It tends to disappear with better optimisation and linking on the landing pages. The quick way around it is to remove ALL mentions of your landing page terms from the homepage. Doing this you will see improvements in the landing page results position too.

For me, this is the reason why i only target generic terms on the homepage. I never mention category or product names on it unless they're link text and unavoidable. This solves the problem over time, but its not a solution for everybody and is specific to certain product /service types.

Homepage is for generic terms only !!! Lets assume i sell Cast Iron Garden furniture and statues, and one of my biggest sellers is Cast Iron Benches. I want to be found for it, so do i put that term on my homepage? no.. definetely not if i can help it.
My title would simply be 'Cast iron Garden Ornaments and Furniture', it would NOT be 'cast iron garden products, cast iron benches, lampposts and more'. To do so would ruin my chances of the landing page for cast iron benches... dont even mention cast iron benches inthe homepage copy unless you have to, and if you do, user a variant where possible.

Edited by adibranch, 28 May 2009 - 05:06 AM.

[1dmf]

Odd.. but it happens, and is similar to what you're seeing with the two results. It tends to disappear with better optimisation and linking on the landing pages. The quick way around it is to remove ALL mentions of your landing page terms from the homepage. Doing this you will see improvements in the landing page results position too.

adibranch :

I've seen this phenomenon on a friends site I've just launched.

But I don't understand the removal of the search term on the homepage to improve the sub landing page ranking.

He gets 1st page results for a specific phrase which shows home page then indented the sub landing page below it.

surely 2 pages listed on 1st page of SERPs is better than 1 ?

Or is it holding back better SERPs for other keywords not on the home page?

I'm a little confused over the interaction of home page and sub pages you describe.

[adibranch]

adibranch :

He gets 1st page results for a specific phrase which shows home page then indented the sub landing page below it.

surely 2 pages listed on 1st page of SERPs is better than 1 ?

depends which way you look at it. To me, two pages presented in serps to the average user is just confusing. Do they click the homepage link, or your landing page link? If they click your homepage link, do you risk losing the visitor due to nav or other lack of info about what they want? This is a fail to me, the page i want returned is the one specific to the search request, not the homepage.

Or is it holding back better SERPs for other keywords not on the home page?

not quite, its actually holding back serps for your dedicated landing page optimised for terms which are also briefly mentioned on the homepage.

I've had situations where the homepage is returned instead of the landing page, even though the algorthyms have actually matched the landing page better (we'll assume the landing page carries good weight). I've then removed the terms from the homepage as an experiment. The result is that the landing page is now listed ABOVE the position where the homepage was previously. The homepage is no longer returned at all.
It seems google matches a page on your site, sees the phrase on the homepage too, and then returns this instead but at a lower position.

But remember, this isnt a set rule and its not a solution which is applicable to everyone. Also, this issue may eventually go away on its own as you continue to promote the site. But, if your results are currently showing this happening, then just try it as an experiemnt for one term, and see what happens.

[Jill]

So, someone does a search, and your deep page gets matched to term. Google also references a mention of that term on the homepage (it only needs to be ONE mention, and can be anywhere even in an alt tag). It then returns the homepage instead at a lower position than your landing page would have been.

You sure about this? That is sure a new one as far as I'm concerned.

I would not be so quick to believe this without seeing it (many times over) with my own eyes.

Homepage is for generic terms only !!! Lets assume i sell Cast Iron Garden furniture and statues, and one of my biggest sellers is Cast Iron Benches. I want to be found for it, so do i put that term on my homepage? no.. definetely not if i can help it.
My title would simply be 'Cast iron Garden Ornaments and Furniture', it would NOT be 'cast iron garden products, cast iron benches, lampposts and more'. To do so would ruin my chances of the landing page for cast iron benches... dont even mention cast iron benches inthe homepage copy unless you have to, and if you do, user a variant where possible.

Just can't agree with this.

To me, two pages presented in serps to the average user is just confusing.

Ok, now I'm really confused.

2 pages in the SERP is the holy grail of SEO. Not confusion!

[adibranch]

You sure about this? That is sure a new one as far as I'm concerned.
I would not be so quick to believe this without seeing it (many times over) with my own eyes.

I've seen it many many times. In one case, this happend with ONE mention of the term in an alt tag. I removed the alt tag term. The correct landing page was returned ABOVE the previous serp.
There is no way the homepage would carry that weight for the term on its own. No links to the homepage were made under that term, and one alt tag isnt enough to carry it into a prominent position in the serps. Ergo, the landing page was doing the job, yet it was the home page being returned.

Homepage is for generic terms only !!! Lets assume i sell Cast Iron Garden furniture and statues, and one of my biggest sellers is Cast Iron Benches. I want to be found for it, so do i put that term on my homepage? no.. definetely not if i can help it.
My title would simply be 'Cast iron Garden Ornaments and Furniture', it would NOT be 'cast iron garden products, cast iron benches, lampposts and more'. To do so would ruin my chances of the landing page for cast iron benches... dont even mention cast iron benches inthe homepage copy unless you have to, and if you do, user a variant where possible.


Just can't agree with this.

fair enough, but think about it for a second. Wy would you want your homepage to catch all your traffic which is other wise destined for landing pages. I cant think of ANY legitimate reason why i would want this to happen. Okay, to be fair, initially you have to do this to until each page of the site gets indexed and has its own weight, so in this instance i may target additional terms on the homepage.
But, also consider, you cant include all your required terms on the homepage, and to do so waters down the effectiveness of each. So, where do you stop? and which ones do you choose at the expense of others?

Ok, now I'm really confused.

2 pages in the SERP is the holy grail of SEO. Not confusion!

maybe.. despite the fact that two pages in the serp is relatively easy (one sub listing underneath another), why would i want the home page returned above my landing page? The correct landing page for the correct term is one of the biggest aims of onsite SEO , would you agree? To have the homepage there above the landing page, isnt fulfilling the aims of the process.
What if i further want to tweak my page? how can i monitor whats happening? How can i be sure its my landing page thats carrying the result and not the homepage? how do i monitor bounce rate effectively for that page?
To have the homepage returned instead or above the landing page takes everything out of your control.

As to why it confuses visitors.. simple.. two pages, one underneath the other, same site. Which contains the information i'm after?
Most will opt for the homepage (as it'll be the first link) and then have to go through nav or searches to get to the info or product they wanted. The result is an increase in drop off rate before the correct page is hit. One click is now four clicks.

Edited by adibranch, 28 May 2009 - 09:35 AM.

[adibranch]

of course, all the above is just my opinion and way of doing things. i get better results and control this way, but it doesnt mean it'll work for everyone.

[1dmf]

I've seen it many many times. In one case, this happend with ONE mention of the term in an alt tag. I removed the alt tag term. The correct landing page was returned ABOVE the previous serp.

if this is true, that seems like a bug in their algo rather than a desired effect?

[adibranch]

if it was a bug, it wouldnt cause what we're seeing today, ie homepage above landing page, two results in serps, same site. If you have this, try getting rid of all mentions of your landing term in the homepage, and see what happens.

[mal4mac]

... someone does a search, and your deep page gets matched to term. Google also references a mention of that term on the homepage (it only needs to be ONE mention, and can be anywhere even in an alt tag). It then returns the homepage instead at a lower position than your landing page would have been...

Yes I have seen this.

Odd.. but it happens, and is similar to what you're seeing with the two results. It tends to disappear with better optimisation and linking on the landing pages.

Are you sure it's this? Might Google have improved its algorithm? After all the landing was better optimised anyway... I have seen index pages rank higher instead of the pages they index on page 2 and then, suddenly, without me changing anything, the indexed pages breezing onto page 1. It's nice to sanity return to Google :-)

For me, this is the reason why i only target generic terms on the homepage. I never mention category or product names on it unless they're link text and unavoidable. This solves the problem over time, but its not a solution for everybody and is specific to certain product /service types.

It's not only a home page/landing page problem. It's an index page/landing page problem. because each directory can have an index page you can experiment, rather than sticking to a boring generic campaign...

Homepage is for generic terms only !!!

Why?

Lets assume i sell Cast Iron Garden furniture and statues, and one of my biggest sellers is Cast Iron Benches. I want to be found for it, so do i put that term on my homepage? no.. definetely not if i can help it.
My title would simply be 'Cast iron Garden Ornaments and Furniture', it would NOT be 'cast iron garden products, cast iron benches, lampposts and more'. To do so would ruin my chances of the landing page for cast iron benches... dont even mention cast iron benches inthe homepage copy unless you have to, and if you do, user a variant where possible.

It wouldn't necessarily ruin it, and you might want to give benches a first page title boost...

Never say never.

[adibranch]

It wouldn't necessarily ruin it, and you might want to give benches a first page title boost...

possibly.. but thats what my landing page is for anyway , good to see other people have noticed it happening.

[mal4mac]

You sure about this? That is sure a new one as far as I'm concerned.

I would not be so quick to believe this without seeing it (many times over) with my own eyes.
Just can't agree with this.
Ok, now I'm really confused.

The pages of mine that were doing this most recently now seem to be behaving properly. Maybe your sites are better designed than mine :-) I've a largish site with some truly organic cross-linking so perhaps the Google spider is following a trail that leads to the index page one week, but doesn't catch up with the landing pages until a few weeks later.

Then again, i have a vague memory of some old page playing up this way. I must dig them out... Perhaps you need to churn the pages to get the spider excited?