20 replies to this topic

[davido]

Not sure if this is the right thread. But I have two websites, both currently under development and will be completed in 3-4 weeks time. I am seriously considering outsourcing the SEO aspects but am skeptical due to the current turmoil in the SE industry.

The first site is an online store that sells and ships toys. The main page and other sub product pages are static html, but all other product pages uses dynamic html. Spiders don't like dynamic html, so the chances of a good ranking is very low.

So that's where the second site comes in. It's an informational guide on the products we carry. It sits on a separate url, uses static html and provides advice for visitors and also a convenient link into our main store. As you might have guessed, this site is used to draw visitors from the SE.

The keyphrase is very competitive due to it's commercial nature. The competition is about 4.7 million with many adwords and sponsored links. The top 10 sites have a PR of 5 or 6.

My site is totally new, not even submitted to directories yet. I'm looking to outsource the SEO portion but am skeptical about any SEO's ability to deliver results. My concerns are :-

1) Google has just changed their algorithm again. Yahoo now uses their own algorithm. Since these algorithms are a secret and constantly eveolving, how accurate is any SEO's knowledge on what they are doing?

2) I'll be competing with sites of PR5 and 6. A quick google backlink query on my competitors shows between 100 to 400 backlinked sites. We know there are probably more as google does not show all backlinks.


I have come across many SEO sites guaranteeing top 10 positions and some with money back guarantee. What I'm afraid of is that the guarantee could be conditional or simply a scam. Such as guaranteed top 10 on condition that you build up a PR6 with relevant links. That makes it pointless to hire an SEO.

The end result I'm looking is for the SEO to get me to the top without spamming. Period.

For the SEO experts, would you honestly recommend that I take this path and are my expectations realistic? I don't have a big budget to spend thousands on SEO.

Thanks very much.

[medkraft]

Welcome davido,

Like many industries, especially one as immature as SEO (SEM or whatever you want to call it), there are examples of the good, the bad and the ugly (heck even long standing industries like real estate, auto sales, and construction still cover the full range). Just as there are bad examples of individuals and businesses who have been duped there are are as many or more who can generally make a big contribution to your bottom line.

Do, I believe it's worth hiring outside help? Of course. But my reason is not because I need to make a quick buck or feed my family. Rather, I like others, know it works and can prove it with relevant examples. Are Seo Consultants Worth The Price? Well that depends on whether they can deliver you more in profit than you spend on their service?

To find one who can, ask around for a reputable SEO/SEM company or consultant, talk to their clients and ask for valid examples of how they contributed to their client's success. If they can't demonstrate or provide valid examples during a private conversation then move onto others who can.

Don't be put off, if they don't initially show or focus on rankings. Many in the business don't publicly announce their relationships or successes for strategic purposes (despite what may you read in some forums) while others don't focus on rankings due the changing nature of the beast (I personally don't believe it leads to a healthy relationship). With that said, there are also SEOs who do guarantee their work and are very good at what they do. If you're uncertain, ask to talk to as many of their clients as possible. Based on your knowledge, I'm sure you'll be able to decide whether they are credible after a few conversations. Or better yet, hire a third party consultant to overlook their proposals. It costs a bit more, but they'll be able to give you an insider's perspective of who may or may not be promising more than they can deliver.

Despite your limited budget, I'd avoid betting the farm on pure SEO (like I said we all have opinions). Diversify as much as possible. Avoid focusing on one search engine. Experiment with paid advertising (PPC). Try to find someone who is willing to understand your business and work with you to reach your goals. Think long term and more importantly be realistic about your budget. If you find someone who can work within your budget, answer all your questions, and show relevant examples then you'll have a lot less to loose. On the other hand, if you can't find anyone willing to guarantee rankings due to your limited budget it may be a sign that your goals are unrealistic.

As you noted this industry is changing and there are as many opinions on what constitute good or bad practices as there are SEO/SEMs. By doing your homework, I'm sure you'll be able to sort the good from the bad and find someone willing to work within your budget.

Cheers... Tom

Edited by medkraft, 22 February 2004 - 02:18 AM.

[anthonyparsons.com]

Welcome Davido!

Mate, I don't expect to be able to go and do a science teachers job, nor do I expect a science teacher to be capable of performing my job. SEO is well worth it when performed by a "professional".

[OldWelshGuy]

Hi Davido,

I have to ask this question (sorry) but why, if you knew, have you gone forward with building an online store, KNOWING it is not going to be spiderable? that said, the deed has now been done.

Firstly , IMO anyone who guarantees top 10 positions is either deluded or crooked, or crooked via semantic arguments. Like you say, they can get you in the top ten for "toys for sale in xxx little village" they have done what they said they would in the letter of the law. So don't go there.

Just because your using dhtml non spiderable links, does not mean that you can't get those pages spidered, use a complete site map broken down into sections and written in pure html. This will allow every page on your site that you want spidered to be spidered. I have just done this for a totally unworkable cold fusion site, and traffic (and business) has skyrocketed. Ok it is not an ideal world situation, but it can be.


Something you posted makes me think that you might need to step back and re-evaluate your targets

The keyphrase is very competitive due to it's commercial nature

Keyphrase, singular? are you aiming for something daft like toys? or kids toys? because if you are, and you do not want to spend $,000's then your off target. Aiming for a phrase that is going to be that generic is NOT going to be achievable on a few hundred dollar of budget. It is going to involve a HUGE link building campaign.

What I meant be stepping back a little is this. Take a look at the way your hierarchy is designed within your store. Look at the lower level of searches and aim for those across the board. You need to do a whole lot of keyword research and ensure that you appear near the top for a wider level of searches of a more specific nature. These will result in highly qualified traffic, which all else being equal, should convert nicely.

With regard being skeptical about "any SEO's ability to deliver results", that is business, and sometimes you have to try to be open minded. If you have doubt, then ask for proof. I have had a constant stream of traffic and requests for work since florida, due to the fact that people who's sites went away, are finding my sites (either my own, or sites I have worked on and have backlinks on) they are saying the same thing time after time, either on the phone, or mostly by email " how have you kept yoursite/xxxsite in the serps?" many simply want to pick your brains and have a free lunch, but the 'real' people come right out and say, "I can see your sites are not affected, what do you charge?"

I HAVE had sites affected by florida etc, but it has not killed the sites, as it has been the odd phrase here and there. This is what I meant by re-evaluating your strategy. If you are shooting for the golden goose phrase, and it goes south, then you are up the creek, but if you are shooting for 20,30, 40, 50, or 100's of phrases, then your business would have been largely unaffected by florida etc. Florida did NOT IMO apply site wide anything, it just changed the way it did things, and this affected some, NOT ALL phrases within that site. In almost all cases that I have dealt with, these have been generic searches.

[Scottie]

Welcome Davido!

The question isn't whether an SEO professional is worth it, the question really is picking the right one for your needs.

Spiders do index dynamic content all the time- unless someone has looked at your site and told you why your dynamic content is not spiderable, all may not be lost there.

Check out SEOPros and SEOConsultants for lists of SEO's that have been screened for best practices. You can also become an active member here (20 posts) and post in the Website Review area for some feedback on your major issues- it could help you to screen potential SEO's you want to work with if you aren't hearing the same concerns as you get here.

Most importantly, read up! The more you know, the better informed your choice will be.

[projectphp]

I'm looking to outsource the SEO portion but am skeptical about any SEO's ability to deliver results.

This is actually a really good question, and you should start here: What exactly are the "results" that you are looking for?

OK, lets take a step back.

The simple fact is you don't need an SEO, nor even a website. What you need is a tool to move your product. It could have been a bricks and mortar store, a tarvelling van, mail order, a million options. You chose eCommerce. Fair enough, so you need a website.

Your decision was then to choose a website that used DHTML. That was a bad move, kinda like needing a screw driver and choosing a hammer: it might do part of the job, but it is far from ideal.

Next, you need to find a way to market your tool. enter an outsourced SEO. So do you need one?

It depends. Do you have more time or money? If, as Mick Jagger said, "Tiiiiime, is on my side", and your capital is low, then don't get an SEO, and instead learn the skills yourself. If, however, you have a bit of cash to throw around at marketing, definitely get an SEO / SEM / Interent Marketer.

OK, if you decide that an SEO is the best bet, what "results" do you want??

IMHO, too many people want "vanity rankings", that is, a number one ranking for "toys" or whatever their "Primary keyword phrase" is. Avoid that pitfall, because it fails to solve the fundamental problem: the need to move product to survive.

Instead, define "results" in terms of sales. Not rankings, not traffic, heck not even unique visitors. Sales are what you need, sales are what you should define as "results".

When you talk to prospective SEOs, always talk the $$$ language "How will you increase my sales? What techniques will you use to increase my sales? Are you just chasing rankings, or do you look @ usability as well?? Will you make changes to my site, or is that an additional cost?? What distinguishes you from all the other SEO merchants out there?"

And ask the single most important question: "How do you track and optmise my results?" Without data on traffic, conversions, and keywords, it is all a waste of time.

Also, ask a curly question that you have already asked in here and know the answer to. Something like "So what URLs wont Google crawl?". That way, if they don't pass, you'll know. As an example, a client I have came to us because they went to an SEO / Web Design firm, and guess what? Their site is SEO UNFRIENDLY, to the point of needing to be junked. And teh supposed SEO company now refers SEO to other firms. A simple question or three that they don't know, and you are well on track to working out if they know their stuff or not.

So, caveat emptor, arrive prepared, know what you want, ask for testimonials and make a decision after considering several firms and all the facts.

[peter_d]

Are Seo Consultants Worth The Price?

Here is a question that will seperate the amateurs from the professionals. Ask the SEMs on your shortlist this:

"How will you turn $1 into $2?"

Get them to prove how they will provide a return on your investment. If they can't answer that question, skip them.

Rankings are a hopeless metric. A number one ranking that doesn't produce sales for your company is worthless. In fact, it's less than worthless. It will cost you in terms of bandwidth and lost opportunity.

A good SEM will be able to target the market that meets your sales objectives.

[projectphp]

How will you turn $1 into $2?"

DAMN!!! That was way more succinct!!

Wish I had of said that ...<SULKS OFF>

[davido]

Greetings everybody,

Thanks very much for the input. I picked up some good points from your comments.

The main question is, if I outsource to an SEO, can he/she get top 10 SERPs for my targeted phrases?


1) Dynamic html was a limitation of the shopping cart. Had no choice there. The cart is free, so I'm not complaining until later on when business picks up, then I can opt for a paid cart. But I did pick up your point (OldWelshGuy) about the sitemap. You got a very good point there.

2) I have identified over 20 targeted keyphrases using overture and wordtracker. Yes, my major targeted keyphrases are broad in terms of SE definition. But they are specific in terms of targeted traffic for my business. Try to search for "lingerie". It's very specific from a business standpoint, but too broad from the SE standpoint. Btw, I don't sell lingeries :tooth:

And those are the ones I intend to outsource due to the fierce competition. The more specific ones (which are so much easier) will be optimized in-house. As this is a public forum, I can't mention here what my budget is for SEO. Doesn't run into the thousands, but certainly also not a few hundred.

As a pointer, if my SEO can get top 10 for just five of my major competitive keywords, I'd pay generously because I know the sales from the traffic will more than make up for it. OldWelshGuy, you're right again that it requires a huge link building campaign.

3) This thread is really only about outsourcing the SEO aspects. It doesn't discuss about sales, converting traffic, profits and so on. These aspects such as USP, captivating salescopy, conversion ratios, etc. have pretty much been brainstormed and solutions found. The last missing gap I need to fill is Google.

SE is only part of our overall strategy to build traffic, but it is a major part. We are also using PPC, link building, newsletter, advertising and providing free articles to generate traffic. For the past seven months, my team of three have been working to bring this site up.


Since the site is nearly complete, we've now reached the point of strategizing for organic SERPs. That was tasked to me from the very beginning. So in order to crack Google's code, I put up another site in October last year to experiment with SERPs. This site hit number 1 and boosted my confidence in accomplishing my objective. But when google changed algorithm, my site was dropped. This made me seriously doubt my own ability to optimize and I had proposed to my team to outsource. See http://www.highranki...?showtopic=3933

The objections I met was "what if they can't deliver?" If you look at the top, this is what this whole thread is about. But now, thanks to you folks, I'm convinced that it is a very viable and potent option.

Next is to find out how much it costs. There's a trustworthy (IMHO) site that quotes $200 a page, minimum five pages. Did not mention guarantee, but excellent track record. Lots of testimonials, proof and satisfied customers.

A question for SEO consultants. I have five major keywords. Supposing one ACTUAL keyword is "underwear" with 7.5 million competing sites. Can I expect to pay $200 a page and get top 10 within 3 months in Google? Within reason, the SEO consultant is free to completely redesign the information page.

I will open RFPs to get a sense of pricing. Then propose to my team that we outsource this task.

[Jill]

Welcome davido!

This statement:

3) This thread is really only about outsourcing the SEO aspects. It doesn't discuss about sales, converting traffic, profits and so on. These aspects such as USP, captivating salescopy, conversion ratios, etc. have pretty much been brainstormed and solutions found. The last missing gap I need to fill is Google.

...is showing that you're totally missing the point of what the others are trying to tell you.

What exactly do you think the SEO aspects are? Just creating Meta tags?

If that's what you're thinking, then yes, you should definitely do it yourself.

Sales, converting traffic, copywriting, USP, etc., absolutely HAS to be part of your SEO plan.

If you go write your captivating copy but don't consider your search engine strategy while you're at it, it will all be for nothing.

You need to rethink what you believe SEO to be, and then decide if you need to hire someone to help you with it.

Jill

[projectphp]

You need to rethink what you believe SEO to be, and then decide if you need to hire someone to help you with it.

SEO the "BOLT ON" solution doesn't work very well these days, if it ever did!!!

[Scottie]

The main question is, if I outsource to an SEO, can he/she get top 10 SERPs for my targeted phrases?

This simplest answer to that is NO.

No one can guarantee you listings in the editorial results, although they might be able to do it. It depends on the phrases you are choosing and how much money you have. And they might achieve it this month only to fall off the charts next month. The search engines rank sites on their own criteria which change whenever they feel like changing it.

If you are targeting "underwear" you need to have deep pockets () because you are going to need a huge link building campaign to get anywhere near the top of the SERPS for a term that will send a lot of unqualified traffic. Part of an SEO's job is to help you qualify for keywords for the ones that will send you paying traffic.

[peter_d]

if I outsource to an SEO, can he/she get top 10 SERPs for my targeted phrases?

If I go to the doctor, will he cure me.

Maybe.

Depends.

You're looking for a guarantee that isn't possible. The only way you'll get guaranteed top listing for competitive phrases over time is by bidding high on PPC. There is no other way.

Why?

-the se's don't advise their changes in advance, least of all to SEMs.
-you have no crawl and inclusion guarantee (in Google)
-there will always be competitors with more time, money, patience and skill breathing down your neck. No one wins all of the time.

Edited by peter_d, 23 February 2004 - 05:31 PM.

[SearchRank]

The only way you'll get guaranteed top listing for competitive phrases over time is by bidding high on PPC. There is no other way.

And even then, someone will come and outbid you or write a better ad!

[peter_d]

And even then, someone will come and outbid you or write a better ad!

True, however if you bid $1000 per click you can be assured of dominating any PPC cat.

Ridiculous, I know