30 replies to this topic

[nethy]

Harpsound, you may want to add some web 2.0ish things to your research list. There are several alternatives to forums that may be more suitable.

Slinkset is really cool. It's a digg like social news site. Users submit links or topics (news). Other users comment & vote them (news & comments) up & down. Hosted & free & very easy to set up. It'll accept automated RSS submissions so the transition from Yahoo groups may be eased a bit. I imagine this kind of site would shine once you start hitting big active member numbers when policing/moderating can become more & more community driven.
At the end of the day, it's not too different from a forum & does a very similar job. Obviously, it's better suited to news centric communities the Q&A style communities. But it's a very good everyone communicates with everyone in front of everyone type of site (like a forum).

Very, very easy learning curve.

Ning is something on my to learn list. It's facebook like. make your own social network stuff. Like I said, I haven't really figured out what it's for. Not sure about minimum effective community size (I suspect Slinkset is suboptimal with less then 100 active users per day or so). I think Ning may work with small communities as well.

If I were starting a community site, this is one of the options I would definitely look at.

[harpsound]

Harpsound, you may want to add some web 2.0ish things to your research list. There are several alternatives to forums that may be more suitable.

Slinkset is really cool.
Very, very easy learning curve.

Ning is something on my to learn list.
If I were starting a community site, this is one of the options I would definitely look at.

WOW - Thank you Nethy.
I will definitely look at these.

I find forums to definitely feel like a one way phenomena with this group.
I am looking for simple interactivity.
The networking aspect is very important.

The email listserv model worked for this group because the learning curve was miniscule and the emails were immediate.
Very Web 0.5

S

[nethy]

Cheers Harpsound.

Yeah then definitely look at these. Forums (especially V bulletin) were the default choices for online 'communities' for quite a while. But there are all sorts of interesting options out there now. The good thing about the two above is that they leverage what users are used to from other places. Ning is pretty complicated in terms of user experience (compared to a bulletin board). But it's similar to facebook and/or the various other sites that now have a facebook like aspect for other users (youtube, kiva.org, even google is going that way).

Slinkset is great for topic/news - centric communities. Ning, (I guess) is great for member-centric communities.

[harpsound]

Cheers Harpsound.

Yeah then definitely look at these. Forums (especially V bulletin) were the default choices for online 'communities' for quite a while. But there are all sorts of interesting options out there now. The good thing about the two above is that they leverage what users are used to from other places. Ning is pretty complicated in terms of user experience (compared to a bulletin board). But it's similar to facebook and/or the various other sites that now have a facebook like aspect for other users (youtube, kiva.org, even google is going that way).

Slinkset is great for topic/news - centric communities. Ning, (I guess) is great for member-centric communities.

Hi Nethy

I have just spent 36 hours beating around in Ning.
It is bout 80% of what I was thinking of.
The only downer as far as I am concerned is the aggressive invite system that I cannot disable.
It gets expensive quickly when you try do drop Ning links and ads out of mix but that need not be done early on.
I will definitely need a graphics redesign once I get traction and may drop the links then.

It is definitely a different experience.
Slow adopters will react with some horror.
It is geared more to twenty somethings but I think I can edit down a little for the 50+ bunch.

I will need to custom invite the movers and shakers of the harp world one at a time and build a collective leadership before going after the rank and file on the disparate Yahoo!Groups extant.
Ning programming will improve over time but is an excellent platform to start a community at this point.

Thanks Nethy

Stephen V

[ABAR]

VBulletin may be the easiest thing for you then. It costs money, and you get a limited number of upgrades before you have to pay again.

I think SMF and phpBB will not die off anytime soon however, they have an active community behind both of them. One thing that may happen though is that a project may turn commercial and no longer be available as open source. SMF does not provide a public repository in the true open source spirit...I've seen a number of projects take this route, and the licensing allows it as long as all contributions are made inhouse or all contributors agree to change the licensing.

Yesterday I tried installing SMF with two 3rd party plugins, neither of which worked. Saw the same thing happen on a wordpress blog with a 3rd party plugin. It really just depends on whether you want to wait indefinitely for bugs to be fixed when stuff ends up breaking (or fix them yourself).

I found this website www.siteground.com. I talked to them on the chat feature on their site and they supposedly have SMF and other open source features already installed and hosted on their site. Signing up for a hosting account with them allows you to use them, or so they say. Do any of your know anything about this website?

[nethy]

That sounds good Harpsound.

I'd be very interested to see how you go if you do use Ning. Maybe check in at around launch. Then again after a while. Tell us how it's going & what sort of bumps you've encountered.

Just a suggestion: if you are planning on a very staged entry, perhaps you might want to try enabling features as you go along: start with just a members directory & maybe a blog. Then add in the forums & IM & whatever other features come built in. But don't underestimate the number of people already using facebook, linkedin & such. Even the over 50s.

Good luck.

[harpsound]

That sounds good Harpsound.

I'd be very interested to see how you go if you do use Ning. Maybe check in at around launch. Then again after a while. Tell us how it's going & what sort of bumps you've encountered.

Just a suggestion: if you are planning on a very staged entry, perhaps you might want to try enabling features as you go along: start with just a members directory & maybe a blog. Then add in the forums & IM & whatever other features come built in. But don't underestimate the number of people already using facebook, linkedin & such. Even the over 50s.

Good luck.

I surveyed 1800 harpists and only about 6 admitted to facebook use.
What is happening is that a whole generation of youngsters is bypassing the oldsters who are stuck on Yahoo!Groups.
Most folk harpers start in the 40+ years.
But there is a cohort that starts in their teens.
I am trying to combine the groups under one flag.

As usual where there is change some fall off the back of the moving truck.

Thanks
S

[nethy]

Sounds tricky.

I expected a higher percentage of facebook use (like 20%) in the 40-60 range.
Maybe Ning would be slight overload. It has a pretty full on UI. A lot of stuff going on. No centre of gravity. No one thing the site is for. For social media first timers, that's a bit tricky. I'm not sure a forum is 100% better. Facebook is something you need to "get."

I guess you could use it as a blog or a forum & build from there adding one feature at a time.

Anyway, keep us posted.

[ABAR]

Didn't know if anyone had seen my question... so I posted it again (sorry for the duplication)

I found this website <address removed>. I talked to them on the chat feature on their site and they supposedly have SMF and other open source features already installed and hosted on their site. Signing up for a hosting account with them allows you to use them, or so they say. Do any of your know anything about this website?

[harpsound]

Hi Nethy
I got all anal and started getting all my settings ducks on Ning all lined up and perfect on the 23rd and 24th. Figured I would release in February.
Then decided I was being too controlling and sent 2 emails to a couple of Yahoo!groups on Christmas day.

I now have 64 members - 70% have avatars in place - 15% have reasonably smooth profile pages - one hired her web person on boxing day and has a complete professional webpage in her profile.
There are about 20 mp3 full length harp tunes, numerous image albums with about 70 images - a few videos and about 3 user generated blog posts.

They are starting to figure things out and are nosing around. The forums are starting to generate modest momentum.
The harpists are more interested at this stage in figuring out how to connect with each other and are busy inviting friends on-board and welcoming each other.

The website will not be in Google and is password protected.
The URL name will only be recognisable by a harpist and the signup offers no clues to a spammer.
Word of mouth all the way.
I will moderate all signups later on once the list stabilises.

The feedback is really positive
They like having a face and a city location when they read a post.
Apparently a heavily laden page loads very much faster than Facebook.
The whole Ning platform is pure CSS and html with a couple of widgets - no images.
I have one rural harpist with an extremely slow dialup connection who seems to be happily sniffing around.

I am doing solo moderation at this point building in features and learning the edit settings etc.
The largest difficulties I see are:
*No back-up of added user content
*The owner has no unique global moderation category and is lumped in with the other moderators.
*I have to work out how I stop other moderators from simply deleting the site. (it looks like this could be done - I have yet too have time to sort it out).
*It will be difficult to effectively monitor copyright - I will have to build a culture within the user group that reports transgressions.

This has generally been a very positive experience.
I pay $5 monthly for my own URL/Domain address.
I pay $25 a month to be adsense free.
My guess is that I will pay another $20-30 a month once the streaming starts in earnest.

It is a little pricey but there are zero startup costs and the IT is all done by Ning ad infinitum.
I can sell this site and the incoming buyer can be a programming illiterate.

This is working because there is an established niche being serviced poorly by Yahoo!Groups.
Another group that would work well could be beekeepers.
Spread thin, highly passionate on the topic and connected through societies and small user groups.

S

[nethy]

Sounds great Harpsound, I'm glad to hear it.

Seems like you got the whole thing up & about fairly quickly. Maybe this is a good time to launch. People have time. The oldies have their kids around to show them how to use the site.

I can't really comment on the price. Doesn't seem to bad at all to me, considering hosting + software. Plenty of CMS's charge the same.

What are your goals here for the site? Facebook like social networking? Harpists meeting harpists? A place for harpists to get gigs?

Also, why did you decide to keep the site password protected? I thought that one of the advantages of a Ning site is having the profile pages indexed. That way when people Google each other, their Ning profile shows up. It might be a good way to get new members.

[harpsound]

Sounds great Harpsound, I'm glad to hear it.
Seems like you got the whole thing up & about fairly quickly. Maybe this is a good time to launch. People have time. The oldies have their kids around to show them how to use the site.

Launched noon 25th - our Christmas celebration was on the 24th.
Sent out 2 emails.
With all the usual farting around and decision making you can have this site operational in 1 to 3 days.
I am still adjusting and adding as I see the site in action after 5 days online.
It is a cookie cutter site as you do not have a lot of customisation capability with the graphics - say 30 templates plus colour changes.

I can't really comment on the price. Doesn't seem to bad at all to me, considering hosting + software. Plenty of CMS's charge the same.

Price is relatively cheap - the server and software are exceptionally fast.

What are your goals here for the site? Facebook like social networking? Harpists meeting harpists? A place for harpists to get gigs?

Harpists are plagued by harp dreamers who can be a real nuisance with unending n00be questions
Price of admission is owning a harp.
Harpists network a lot so they know each other throughout the world.
The current 70 members have 30 invites outstanding.
The site is now becoming known within the correct niche.
I do not want members from outside that niche.
Not in Google.
Few links inbound

Also, why did you decide to keep the site password protected?

When you knock on the front door you have no clue about who is inside the building (website).
Only a harpist will recognise the domain name (instantly).
Only 2 results for the word/name/domain are in Google and in english.
I ask a simple moderated question - why do you want to join? - if you do not know who is inside you cannot answer with the magic word "harp"
This is really important for spam control etc as there are no aliases on the site.
This is very much trusted hallowed ground away from fans and dreamers.

I thought that one of the advantages of a Ning site is having the profile pages indexed. That way when people Google each other, their Ning profile shows up. It might be a good way to get new members.

This is news to me.
Operating from a stand alone password to get in I assume that google cannot access the profiles.
I will watch this carefully.

+++

The object of the exercise is to create a vibrant self regulating tribe.
The currently moderated harp groups are tired, stale and populated by unmoderated negative off topic submitters.

Jill has a large tribe - an open one.
This harp tribe is of a particular type of woman - they will not stay if they are being pestered in an open environment.
They network like mad and they share easily.
But it has to be peer to peer.
The object is not to have large numbers but to get the movers and shakers under one roof.
The rest will follow.
They stay hugely on topic and they desire to sell and promote to each other.
There is a lot of reputation building.

This site will be successful with 500 members if they are the go-getters.
I desire to reach 1000 in 2 years.
There are potentially 300 Canadian members - it is a question of timing to get them across from currently moderated groups.
(I moderate more than half of them)
My guess that the pool of active folk harpists is no larger than 5000- 8000 worldwide

We currently only sell on the Canada side of the border.
This site gives huge potential for establishing a warehouse shipping outlet for the USA side.

There is only one sponsor on the new site (my Canadian harp sales company)
Everybody else is a member as a person not a private company etc.
There is huge value in being known and trusted throughout the whole community.
I am not looking for conversions.
I am looking for referrals.
Referrals (teachers, harpists) give us a high rate of conversion with the offsite nOObe harp clients referred.
Cold calling n00be wannabe harpists are a much harder sell.


XXXXXXX :-( The bad news

Hats off to Jill for the culture she has created and the quality of moderation at HR.

It will take me 6 months of hard work to establish the Web 2.0 culture on the website.
Ning is a much different beast to a forum like HR.com.
There is a lot of daily work to be done - featuring, editing activity feeds, checking copyright etc.
The moderation is very hands on.
The design needs to flux with content shifts.
The learning curve for member harpists is high but the bait of publishing their product onsite is even higher.
Most do not have their own website and this seems easy in comparison - they want to small scale sell to each other.
All the media forms are available to them with few barriers to uploading.

Therefore they want as high a profile as possible.
The pressure is on the moderator to give advantage to the loudest, first etc.

This requires an aggressive leadership from me with a very up-front style of ownership/ policy making/ culture establishment.
I make a great second in command.
Seems I need to upgrade to a #1 leadership style quickly.
Volunteer moderation management is doubly difficult with the diverse workload, potential conflict of interest, potential for playing favourite, overwork etc etc.
So the real work is getting happy moderators in place.
Moderators that are clear as to their roles.
They have a gazillion settings at their finger tips - it unnerves them.
This requires a high level of leadership and listening from me.
I am scrambling with this new style of uber commitment on my part.

There are 3 levels of moderator
Owner x1
Global moderator - almost an owner in capability
Very limited small group mod

There needs to be a way to create a level of custom mod between global and very limited given the diversity of features etc.
Probably will not happen soon.


+++

For a deeper understanding of these niche tribes read Seth Godin

Books - Read in this order
Meatball Sundae
Tribes
The Dip

His blog is pure motivation once you grok his message - Meatball Sundae will put it all in perspective.

I normally confine my reading to spiritual tomes.
Seth just uses a new non-mass-marketer's perspective on how spirituality and society are combining at the digital interface.
As GM dies tribes are born.

Enuff
S

Edited by harpsound, 30 December 2008 - 03:49 PM.

[harpsound]

The Ning software has been running 3 weeks now
I sent out 2 emails on Christmas day and everything has built from word of mouth since.

230 registered
85 invites outstanding
More than 50% actively participating and not lurking
Members from about 8 countries
10 mods in place

Not on Google
Not spiderable
Password protected, private viewing only, with a skill testing question which requires prior knowledge from a friend to signup.

Ning software is pretty good
few troubles
lots of settings to tick

This however is not a forum
We have 230 private members pages with uploads
Hundreds of images embedded
Many videos
Widgets
Java
Thousands of comments, emails and postings around the site already
About 30 MP3s

It is impossible to track.
Impossible to be anal.
It has its own momentum.
I am aiming to have one mod per 40 members.
Mods are impossible to track.
A bad apple mod spoils the whole mod barrel.
I am unable to moderate private forums onsite even as network owner.

I would not do this site if it was open to the casual signup.
Copyright issues are difficult
Ning ties the dead chicken around the network owners neck if there are issues.
So far everything is kosher except copyrighted tunes are being played by members on their harps, being recorded by computer and posted on site.
None of this is in public or spider view so I let it ride.
Non-commercial.

Mass marketing is dieing
Copyright as we know it will die too.
These concerns are more short term.

This is web 2.0 and it is not hierarchical.
You have to appoint mods and let them loose.
Think super members with the same mod power you have.
Vet mods very very carefully before you appoint.

Politics arrived and played out between two competing worldviews on harps and healing amongst the mods.
Took 3 days of tense negotiation to reach an acceptable arrangement.
Old wounds to heal before everybody understands each other.

Ning is very very scary if you are hierarchical and anal.
If you can accept many partners and trust them infinitely it works.
You have no choice.

There is one guy's network with 54,000 members direct off the internet.
It must be a total free for all.
I could not sleep at night.

S

Edited by harpsound, 14 January 2009 - 11:03 PM.

[EGS]

What's your site URL out of curiosity?

[EGS]

Wow nobody suggested MyBB, the best open source forum system, which is known widely as "the free vBulletin" ?