12 replies to this topic

[geoinct]

We are a small internet marketing firm. We have 4 PPC consultants so we can handle many PPC projects

However I’m the only senior SEO (we have an associate too) and since I run the company I can only work on two or three SEO projects at a time.

We look for longer term projects, usually 12 months. These agreements are for 12 month projects paid monthly over the course of the project agreement.

Our contracts include a project outline of what tasks we plan to accomplish during the project.

However, as is often the case our clients’ plans can change and they often have delays. We do our best to adapt to changing client plans and delays and rearrange the project plan accordingly.

We include a Customer Responsibilities section that tries to make it clear that if some of the tasks can’t be performed due to delays or changing plans on the clients part that they understand that there is still work being performed, that we’ll do our best to adapt to their changing conditions, but that the agreement is a 12 month agreement, simply being paid monthly, and the monthly fee must be paid.

Over the past few years we’ve not had any real problems; clients understood that if some work was not completed because of delays on their part that they still must pay the monthly fee.

Until recently that is, a client has put a new director in place just was we’re negotiating a renewal and wants a large refund because some tasks were not completed during the initial project.

I guess we need to revise out contract language to make it even clearer.

Does anyone have some contract T’s & C’s along these lines?

I’m also open to considering other methods of handling projects that might work better. I’ve migrated to this approach over the years so that I can plan my time across 2-3 projects, but if there’s a better way I'll look at it.

[Randy]

You have no Refund policy in your current contract George?

It's always been my policy that everyone a written refund policy, even if the policy is simply No Refunds. If you do have a refund policy and since you're doing monthly billing, I'd certainly think something with the max being a couple of months back should be agreeable to most if not all.

People who are truly dissatisfied are going to stop paying and/or want some money back. But by limiting how far they can go back on the monthly charges you're controlling your risk and putting the onus on the client to do what they need to do. Especially for those times when it's the client's fault for something not getting done.

[SEO_Gal]

I guess it would depend on the tasks that were not performed and if that was on the client side or the side of the agency. If the SEO didn't perform certain tasks that were included in the written agreement, then it may be fair to refund only the amount for those tasks. Or.... discount the next month bill or something.

I have a clause in all of my contracts that basically states if a client is dissatisfied with our work, they must give us the opportunity to make it right. Or, if they want to stop doing business, they need to give us a 30 day written notice. The clause also says the client forfeits any payments made to date and no refunds are granted.

These types of situations are never pleasing. It's possible the new director does not know the entire history. You may want to just review the existing contract with that person and have written notes of why certain tasks were not completed. Hopefully he/she will meet you in the middle.

Good luck.

[Scottie]

If your contract states specific tasks for certain fees without a clause that identifies their lack of action as cause to not do those tasks, you (in my opinion) are still obliged to complete those tasks even after the 12 month period has ended.

If you simply charge a retainer in 12 month increments and you do the best you can in those 12 months, then the fee is for your time, not the tasks and the fact that they did not take advantage of the time allotted to them in those months would be non-refundable.

Are your contracts task based or allocated time based?

[midas]

There are some targets every month for us to achieve which are result of the SEO activities we perform and if we are not able to achieve that in that month then we should try or must meet it the following or month if not client should be refuned.. that's what i feel.

[geoinct]

I was traveling the past week

We have no refund policy but we’ll look at putting one in.

We have a Customer Responsibilities section that includes the following -

In order to be successful, you will need to commit time and resources during the project on tasks such as the following:

Review deliverables and recommendations

You’ll need to ensure that the changes and additions decided on are completed in timely manner.

These changes may include:
Changes to existing pages which are often simple modifications to existing text on specific pages and to certain tags contained within the HTML on those pages.

Sometimes we may recommend more extensive changes to a web site such as changing the layout or design of a site including updating the site architecture (the menus, site navigation, etc.)

In some cases we may recommend adding new copy or new pages of content

We did everything we could, delivered as much as we could, and worked within the clients changing plans and delays during the initial project. Much of the work that was planned was completed. However there were some optimization and link building tasks that were delayed because the client decided to rebuild the site and that was delayed over and over.

They were not planning to rebuild the site when we started the project. As one of the first steps in the project I implemented Click Tracks and analyzed the site. I showed them how large of a percentage of the people who start their all important quote/purchase process never finish. In addition we performed a usability evaluation at the beginning the project, and the results showed serious issues throughout the site including the quote/purchase feature. It was after seeing these results that they decided to rebuild the site.

They planned to aggressively rebuild the site and have it relaunched in 4 months. So it made sense to hold up on optimizing pages until we had the new site.

During those four months we worked on the link building and promotion strategy among other tasks.

Then 3-4 months later they let us know they wouldn’t be ready for another 6 months. At that point I told them we should go ahead an optimize pages on the site and move ahead with many of the link building tasks we had held up on waiting for the new site. We got started on the first two pages to optimize but shortly after they said they didn’t have the time to work on them. I tried rolling out link building tasks and they also didn’t have the time for those

However even in months when we were not optimizing pages work was being done - planning, working on some link building and promotion tactics, overseeing the entire project (this is large project that includes SEO, PPC, and more), gathering and analyzing site data and reporting visitor behavior trends, etc. In addition the annual cost of the Click Tracks system is embedded in the 12 month project cost.

What I’m trying to do is make it very clear that if a client engages us for a 12 month project that we are setting aside the time to work on it. I can’t have a client call us up and say sorry but we can’t work on the project for the next 4 months so we want to stop paying you too. This would be a real hardship. I would need to find a replacement project which can take months. Over the past few years we’ve turned away prospects when we had 2-3 projects so we may not even have any potential projects in the pipeline.

Maybe I’m trying to have the best of both worlds and should be doing these longer term projects on a retainer basis by the hour, but I really don’t want to work by the hour on long term projects.

As I’m writing this I’m thinking maybe the way to go is to put language in the contract that says something like if circumstances arise that will delay your ability to work on the project for a substantial amount of time we can look at some reasonable amount of the remaining months that they must pay to disengage or put the project on hold (however they’d need to understand that we may not have the capacity to work on the project in the future).

PS - I have offered to reduce the cost of the next part of the project to make up for tasks that were not completed during the intitial project for this client

[Jill]

What I’m trying to do is make it very clear that if a client engages us for a 12 month project that we are setting aside the time to work on it. I can’t have a client call us up and say sorry but we can’t work on the project for the next 4 months so we want to stop paying you too.

While I understand and agree with your sentiments, I also feel the need to say "good luck with that!"

It seems to be the nature of SEO. The clients don't understand how much work it will be from the start.

We've taken to (in many cases) charging a set fee, rather than a monthly. They pay half up front and then more as the project goes on (if it goes on!).

Pricing is always hard.

[Randy]

We have no refund policy but we’ll look at putting one in.

Then for this client at least you're pretty much at their mercy. Or at the courts mercy if they decide to take that route.

With no refund policy there is no agreement, so now an settlement must be worked out. Either between the parties or with the court as a mediator. Either way, neither side will be totally happy.

It's a hard lesson to learn. But one better learned early on when the damage can be limited.

FWIW, I concur with Jill's basic sentiment. If you have to have a monthly that is really covering initial costs or ongoing costs that you're responsible for --such as if you're fronting money or getting locked into a long term contract with WebTrends-- then you need to do it differently than you now are. I'd make sure the original contract states the Full Base Amount they're responsible for, and make that as close to non-refundable as possible since these are fixed costs, something you really should be receiving up front. If they add on something later update the contract with an addendum, in writing that's signed by all parties before any work is performed.

If you then want to Finance this base fee for them by spreading out the payments over 12 months or whatever, that's fine. Just make sure your contract language and sales process is rock solid so that everybody is fully aware before they sign on the dotted line that the full amount will be due and payable. Since you're financing it, if it were me I'd also have a clause in the contract stating that if they miss a monthly payment you can demand immediate payment of the entire amount.

[Jill]

It's really hard. And I'm a big softie too. While their contract may say something, if the client can't keep going, I personally won't make them, it's just not in me even though legally i'm sure I could. Of course, this is probably why I'm not rich like some in the SEO biz these days!

[circleck]

the SEO company that i hired sets it up like this: all goals are specifically spelled out, they guarantee 5 keywords will each achieve a certain level of ranking (or better), and they consider the goal attained when they've recieved those rankings and held them for a month. if this doesn't happen, they refund the money.

they do payment like this: 12 months (or less) campaign, you pay half up front and half after they have met the goals, if they don't meet the goals, you get your down payment back. 18 month campaign (this is what i have as i have very competitive keywords) i paid 40% up front, 10% after 6 months and the rest upon completion. again, if they don't meet the goals, i've got it in writing that i get a full refund on what i've paid already and don't owe any more.

they told me they like to do it this way because 1) they don't expect the person to fork it all over before any results are even made 2) it helps their cash flow to get a little bit of money up front 3) they admitted (which i admired) that sometimes they don't meet their goal, and it's easier on them to refund part of it than all of it.

[circleck]

i wanted to add another 2 bits - after re-reading your issue, am i to understand that they client is doing some of the work? i know that my SEO company has asked me to do a very very small amount of work - which i also have appreciated. the reason i appreciated this is because i thought it was very smart on their part.

i was a general contractor (built and remodeled homes) for quite awhile and the two worst projects i ever had were projects where the homeowner was doing part of the work themselves, at the same time i was doing my part of the project. quite frankly they were both disasters because the homeowner had no business trying to do what they should have hired someone else to do - i look at SEO the same way. frankly, if i had the time and expertise to do this, i'd do it, not hire it done. i also think i'm getting more out of my SEO because of this, i get the feeling they appreciate that i trust what they're doing and am not trying to run the process even though i have no idea (relatively speaking) what's going on. for whatever it's worth to all you SEO's out there, i think you should really consider this issue if you haven't already... sorry for the rant

[geoinct]

i wanted to add another 2 bits - after re-reading your issue, am i to understand that they client is doing some of the work? i know that my SEO company has asked me to do a very very small amount of work - which i also have appreciated. the reason i appreciated this is because i thought it was very smart on their part.

i was a general contractor (built and remodeled homes) for quite awhile and the two worst projects i ever had were projects where the homeowner was doing part of the work themselves, at the same time i was doing my part of the project. quite frankly they were both disasters because the homeowner had no business trying to do what they should have hired someone else to do - i look at SEO the same way. frankly, if i had the time and expertise to do this, i'd do it, not hire it done. i also think i'm getting more out of my SEO because of this, i get the feeling they appreciate that i trust what they're doing and am not trying to run the process even though i have no idea (relatively speaking) what's going on. for whatever it's worth to all you SEO's out there, i think you should really consider this issue if you haven't already... sorry for the rant

Like many clients of this size, it’s a $100 million financial services company, they have an IT department and tight security so all changes to the web site have to be implemented by them. All we can do is give them the suggestions and changes and they have to implement them.

PS – We have gotten past this issue with the client and are moving ahead with them. The new Marketing Director is making things happen over there, so finally we are getting things done!

[circleck]

glad to hear things may turn out alright in the end. it can never be easy can it?!