13 replies to this topic

[Dyan]

When I head over to wordtracker to research keywords, I come up with results like this:

denver radio stations
denver colorado radio stations
radio stations in denver
denver pop radio stations

So now I'm totally confused. I know that the keywords must appear in my text. However Does the specific phrases also have to appear. In other words, if my text contains the words 'denver' 'colorado' 'pop' 'radio' and 'stations', will I be okay if I put phrases like 'denver radion stations', 'denver colorado radio stations' and 'radio stations in denver' in my tags. OR do I need to ensure that somewhere on the page I have the specific phrases 'denver radio stations', 'denver colorado radio stations' and 'radio stations in denver' in order to stay out of trouble if I used those phrases in my tags?

And yes, I realize that the safest route may be to ensure that the exact phrases are there. But there isn't a lot of text on some of my pages, so I want to be sure that I don't accidently cause myself trouble just in case. So............. does anyone know if it's safe to use a phrase as long as the individual words are in my page although not necessarily in the exact same order.

YES, I'm confused. LOL

[qwerty]

Yes, it does help to have all the words in the phrase on a given page, even if they're not together. Traditionally (if you can have tradition in an industry as young as SEO) it's been considered better to have your keyword phrase together, especially in the title of the page.

Since the Florida update a few months ago, a number of people have promoted the theory that doing so is deemed "over SEO-ing" and sets off a flag at Google, causing your site to be demoted for that phrase. I don't believe it myself, though.

If you decide to go that way (which I recommend) and you're having trouble finding ways to get the phrase into the text, I'd recommend looking into the tutorials written by Karon Thackston (our own "Copywriter"). You can also look into Jill's "Nitty Gritty" report. You'll find links to both at http://www.stuffyoum...opywriting.html

[Dyan]

I can easily use one phrase in my page title because it fits into the page layout in a very natural way and it is on point to describe the page.

So let's say that I used "denver radio stations" as the page title. Both in the title tag AND as a text heading on the page. But what if in the description and keyword tags, I also included "denver colorado radio stations" and "radio stations in denver"? Will I get into trouble if those exact phrases aren't in my page text. The page IS about denver radio stations, so each phrase is relevant and accurately describes what is on the page. But what if somewhere on the page I don't have the phrase "denver colorado radio stations"?

Am I making this too difficult on myself? In a way, I feel like I am. If the phrases are relevant for my page and if the individual words appear on the page, then I can't see how search engines would fault me if the exact, word for word phrase "denver colorado radio stations" doesn't appear on the page. On the other hand, I know next to nothing about search engines and could make silly mistakes that could cost me. So I want to avoid that.

Btw, thanks for the help!

[qwerty]

If you're talking about having an exact phrase in the keywords meta tag, but having the words scattered on the page but not together (that is, the word "Colorado" isn't right there with "Denver radio stations"), I'd say don't worry about it.

The only SE that seems to care at all about the kw tag is Inktomi, and I see no reason to think that they require that phrases all appear together. I'd throw the word "Colorado" onto the page just to be on the safe side (I'm still learning what I can about best practices regarding INK), but I don't think it's going to be a problem.

[torka]

Just to jump in here with what may be a silly question... (but one hates to assume anything). You have checked to make sure that all of these phrases do generate sufficient search volume to make it worth your while to optimize for them, right? And that there isn't an overwhelming amount of competition, too, of course.

The "KEI" numbers in WordTracker aren't really the best way to guage the level of competition... if you haven't already, check out this thread started by DanThies to see how to get an idea of the real level of competition.

<EDIT: I went back to check and now I see you posted to that thread, Dyan, so obviously you were already aware of it! Sorry...>

In some cases, you might find that you don't need to optimize for all the different phrases, either because some of them get so little volume or because there's too much competition for them.

And even if you do decide to optimize for them all, you'll probably be able to zero in on one or two that are your best bets. You can then make sure they appear as exact phrases in your text. The rest, you can just make sure the individual words appear on your pages.

My

--Torka

[copywriter]

There are many ways to work keyphrases into your copy (even if it is just a little bit of copy) without over doing it and without making the phrases stand out like a sore thumb.

For instance:

In this example, I'm going to talk about Denver. Radio stations is something else I'll talk about.

The phrase is still together (because engines ignore punctuation), but it reads differently to the visitor.

Karon

[gnnc]

Hi there

I have to add my 2 pennies to this discussion

If we take a look at the KP "denver colorado radio stations", and we optimize a +-300 word, 3-4 paragraph copy for this phrase, we must agree that it will sound a bit repetitive and "spammy" to the majority of the reading population.

Example of how we could include them in the copy include, inter alia:

"..Denver, Colorado. Radio stations....."
"...Denver Colorado radio stations...
"....Denver. Colorado radio stations....."

Yes, we can use punctuation and full stops, but I think we're being very naive if we think that people won't find it odd and annoying (and lacking originality and creativity). It just doesn't seem and sound right regardless of how you include this exact phrase into the copy.

Unfortunately, this is how it is. I write copy every day and unfortunately am presented with KPs such as this example. I wish there was a better way to use the language to its fullest potential instead of having to limit ourselves to exact, sometimes nonsensical phrases.

[gnnc]

Oh, and hello everyone

[Jill]

Welcome gnnc!

Yes, we can use punctuation and full stops, but I think we're being very naive if we think that people won't find it odd and annoying (and lacking originality and creativity). It just doesn't seem and sound right regardless of how you include this exact phrase into the copy.

Sorry to be blunt, but me thinks you just don't know how to do it correctly then. Because it most definitely can be done.

[copywriter]

Welcome gnnc

I agree with Jill. I do it all day, every day and it most certainly can be done with the retention of natural flow. In fact, that's what my "How To Increase Keyword Saturation (Without Destroying the Flow of Your Copy) is all about.

There is no doubt that KPs work best when all words remain together. The "skill" comes in getting the words on the page. The "talent" comes in making that phrase unobtrusive so that the site visitor doesn't get annoyed.

Karon

[gnnc]

retention of natural flow

How can one retain a natural flow when when one is restricted to using certain words, even if it is only 3% of the entire copy. Natural and restriction are two opposites IMO.

Don't get me wrong! I love this industry and am fairly new to it as well, so my questioning nature can only stand to my good, not so?

I also think the problem lies with clients who prefer copy that isn't seo'd but still want they results. They'd prefer exquisitely written copy and I'm finding it a bit difficult with the occassional disagreement on copy and the seo done on it.

Sometimes a client will have their own copy for their website, and when I change it to include KPs then they aren't happy. It's a catch 22 situation I think . . .

[copywriter]

It's all in the way you write it, gnnc. It also has to do with clients who understand that you can't pick "way out there" keyphrases for use with their sites. Like a page the deals with hairstyling that is trying to rank highly for the term "bath salts." The terms actually have to fit with the page. Some clients (unfortunately, some SEOs) just pick keyphrases willy nilly and tell the copywriter to fit them in wherever.

Just because the term is one that is low in competition, has lots of serarches and may, in some remote form or fashion, be related to the client's site, doesn't mean you should optimize for it. It has to make sense.

[gnnc]

If we were to take a 300 word copy, and include a two word phrase into the copy, eg. Luxury Accommodation, how many times (minimum) should it be mentioned in the copy, disregarding the title tag and anchor text.

Also, is it absaolutely necessary to have the KP mentioned in the very first sentence, and the very last sentence. Does it need to be mentioned in the last paragraph at all, if it is mentioned already in the beginning paragraphs?

I've read all the articles on this but would value your insight.

[copywriter]

You're not going to like my answer There are no formulas. There might have been at one time (just like the keyword tag might have gotten you good rankings in the past), but not any more.

Here's my viewpoint.

The Mystery of the Magical Keyword Density Formula