17 replies to this topic

[Deverill]

I hope someone has some ice water they can throw on me because I'm just totally ticked at some folks and need it to cool off!
(This is a rant and that's why it's in the pub)

I just transferred to the "internet department" of our company and am a web programmer (yay!). I have been hanging around these forums enough to know a little about SEO so the bosses invited me to the meeting with the marketing firm we are using. They have some good ideas marketing-wise, but my gosh, the "SEO" guy they have is a bozo! Now I'm trying to educate my company without seeming like a jerk myself.

Here's one thing that happened just the other day. We were going over the stats on the site and he (the "SEO expert") was saying we have 3,200 linkbacks to our domain on certain keyphrases. I did a quick "phrase -site:oursite.com" and found that there were only around 800 legitimate ones from the outside world. I asked him about it and he acted like he'd never heard of -site: in Google and started hem-hawing about how it's just how Google reports links. BS, it's smoke he's blowing up places that aren't made to have smoke!

Ok, so I'm steamed but decide to give him the benefit of the doubt. Then he gets to a search term "san francisco" for which we are on about page 300 (exaggeration) in Google. He says that it's our #3 best search term coming in from Google and that the pay-per-post blogging is working. I mentioned our placement for SF and isn't it more likely that folks are coming in on "San Francisco tours" for which we are on page 2 and Google's just reporting it that way? He said that if the report says "SF" then everyone is searching for SF and not SFXtra. I went to my church's website which is tiny (about 40 members) and sure enough, our #6 best keyword from Google searches was "Church". Now with all the megachurches out there I'm sure if you put "church" into Google we'd be on page 637 so anecdotally it proves he's full of it.

I know I can't trust this guy based on my limited knowledge but it's up to me to convince my bosses of it. I just don't know how I can make what I do and this company rakes in tens of thousands per year from us alone for this "service".

I guess it's true what they say about experts - a spurt is a drip under pressure and an ex is a has-been. (present company excluded!)

Well, just wanted to vent. Thanks for the opportunity and for having such a great place people like me can go to learn about this so we don't get raped by the -- especially Jill who would probably make more money not giving out all the free advice but does it anyway... but you all are great!

Shew, I feel better now.

Edit: Oh yeah, I forgot to mention what first tipped me off. He was bragging that they only pay-per-post with sites that have a Google PR of 4 or more. He was really hot on PR so I knew he was shakey at best.

[qwerty]

Classic. I never get used to dealing with those people.

[Jill]

So common, and so sad. I wish marketing companies would stick to marketing and stay out of SEO!

[Randy]

My rule #1.

If anybody ever refers to themself as an expert, guru or similar --whether doing it themselves or in their marketing documents-- I run as far away from them as quickly as I can. This personal rule applies across any and every field you can imagine, and my reasoning is because 99.99999999% of the time it just means they're one of the biggest bull artists in the field.

In my experience the really good ones will even correct it if someone else attempts to refer to them as an Expert. Mostly because they don't want their good name associated with those who work so hard to make the term stick to them, when they're so undeserving.

[Bri]

I can relate to your frustration, fully! I would engage him in more Polite conversation on the topic. As long as you don't start to look bad with your boss. He'll dig his own grave eventually.

[Deverill]

I can relate to your frustration, fully! I would engage him in more Polite conversation on the topic. As long as you don't start to look bad with your boss. He'll dig his own grave eventually.

You're right, Bri. Even at their level of knowledge they are starting to see the folly... too slowly for my tastes but we can't have everything. My direct boss even told me "good catch" on the -site: thing so I am able to make an impact.

Can't we just open season on them all? "Prove your skills, padner, or we'll light you up so fast you'll be at the doc's before you even hear the shots! Pow - pow-pow."

[glengara]

"..and that the pay-per-post blogging is working."

From the sound of your company I'm sort of surprised to see this, it would prompt me to take a closer look at what they've done with the site linkage...

[Brian Turner]

The trouble is, you're not able to profess yourself as a specialist in this area yourself, so be careful of over-reaching yourself - I'm all too familiar with web developers who think they know "SEO" because they read off-hand comments from non-SEO's about SEO.

It sounds like you have an understanding of some key basics, so it's certainly worth communicating this in a polite manner.

However, at the end of the day, the decision to use the "SEO expert" is not one you can control, so try to avoid looking like the trouble causer in all this.

2c.

[Mike Tekula]

I'd say the best idea would just be to raise questions when and where you can. Don't look like the aggressor - then the focus is on you. Rather than making points, ask seemingly innocent questions that get right at the issue. Eventually the guy is going to slip up and say something that will just sound stupid.

People can string a nice line of bull crap when they're prepared for it, and I've found that simply asking the right questions can keep the heat on them until they misstep.

Maybe you should be passive aggressive. Just a thought, you know. It works for me. Might work for you.

[kexster]

Deverill, my personal recommendations in issues like this is to be as prepared as possible for any discussions with the SEO in the room. Only call him out on issues you can win. Which means you don't have to pretend to know everything. You can even say, I am not an expert, but I have been reading the works of some respected people in the SEO world and I know these points are important.

Hopefully, the SEO dude or dudette will step up their game and not settle for simple answers but will get involved with knowledge sites like HighRankings. It is always tough to displace a paid consultant or marketing team, so tread lightly. Your organization must have a lot of respect for your talents so use that to your advantage and don't just bad mouth the other person, but offer "Correct Information". In time you will be the expert in any conversation. Be patient but do not be quiet.

I wish you the best of luck.

[Tom Bennett]

As a member of one of those "Marketing" companies that work with SEO clients too, I can tell you I never claim to be an "expert" at SEO. It seems so simple and logical a task, (Jill is so good at keeping it clear) but the minutiae of it elude me every day. I mess it up as often as get anything right...

One method to work with a marketing agency is to form your work with them in terms of value added. In terms of a website, measure all value based on what it brings to your company. Create "conversion metrics" that are tied to actual revenue. Your relationship with them should be tied to the Analytics, and ultimately to the original business goals. Is this company helping you get leads, sales, customers? How many?

Management often misses this too, and we all know how they can focus sometimes on a top ranking for a favorite keyword, instead of the value generated by good marketing. If you can focus on that element of the relationship, it might expose the cracks in the system to your management.

[ttwblb]

We were going over the stats on the site and he (the "SEO expert") was saying we have 3,200 linkbacks to our domain on certain keyphrases. I did a quick "phrase -site:oursite.com" and found that there were only around 800 legitimate ones from the outside world. I asked him about it and he acted like he'd never heard of -site: in Google and started hem-hawing about how it's just how Google reports links.

The way I read Deverill's post, a search using "phrase -site:oursite.com" is not going to show links, it is only going to show all the pages in Google's index that include that phrase minus the pages with that phrase at oursite.com.

If you want to search Google for links, you do a link:oursite.com but of course that won't give accurate information, you need to use the Google Webmaster Tool.

[ttwblb]

I just want to add that I did not insert that extremely annoying animated "quote" emoticon that shows at the upper right corner of my post. It appears to have been automatically inserted.

I really dislike animated emoticons. They are distracting, completely unnecessary, and make it difficult to read a post because of their movement. I know that the board admin can remove them from the selection box on the left side of the reply screen, and I would very much appreciate if they were not available. They serve no useful purpose.

[Hyperformance]

Deverill -

Great rant. I guess I wanted to add that a person like you on the paying Team will only help this SEO step-up his game - if he does not see this himself, something is wrong... but I believe it WILL accomplish his watching what he says a little closer - and be better able to back it up. IMO maybe nothing else is necessary (hopeful) for your companys sake. Kepp looking out for your firm, but don't lose your edge in your position by focusing too much on his job.

And ttwblb -

"I just want to add that I did not insert that extremely annoying animated "quote" emoticon that shows at the upper right corner of my post. It appears to have been automatically inserted"

There are other ways you can quote someone here - and YOU have the option of not inserting an emoticon (as above) - we all have opinions, but it is not our Board - Personally, I hate initials in a name where I can't figure out it's meaning? However, it's not my place to tell you to change your name just because it's annoying to me... Right? I am quite certain that if the "masses" felt the same way you do, then these emoticons would not exist or be as poplular "to some" as they are...

- Scott

[ttwblb]

There are other ways you can quote someone here - and YOU have the option of not inserting an emoticon (as above) - we all have opinions, but it is not our Board - Personally, I hate initials in a name where I can't figure out it's meaning? However, it's not my place to tell you to change your name just because it's annoying to me... Right? I am quite certain that if the "masses" felt the same way you do, then these emoticons would not exist or be as poplular "to some" as they are...

- Scott

Scott, my name is stated clearly in my post, no initials are used.

I did not insert that annoying animated emoticon, I just hit the "Reply" button. I'm doing the same in this post, let's see what happens.

Regarding my original point:

The way I read Deverill's post, a search using "phrase -site:oursite.com" is not going to show links, it is only going to show all the pages in Google's index that include that phrase minus the pages with that phrase at oursite.com.

If you want to search Google for links, you do a link:oursite.com but of course that won't give accurate information, you need to use the Google Webmaster Tool.

No one has commented on that yet. Comments?