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Durova, Wikipedia And Danny Sullivan


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67 replies to this topic

#16 Jill

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Posted 21 July 2007 - 08:22 AM

QUOTE
Basically it said that journalism should be left to the journalists, those trained in responsible journalism. With the advent of blogs, wikipedia, and the like, it argued, there is no journalisitc oversight and no sense of responsibility for reporting the truth.


giggle.gif Obviously, written by a journalist. Unfortunately, journalistic responsibility seems to be an oxymoron and has been for quite some time.

It seems to be quite the opposite. Bloggers are actually forcing journalists to tell the truth now, because they're getting caught left and right when they lie or stretch things. Where as before bloggers they could print anything they wanted and it was believed as the truth.

All hail the blogger!

#17 projectphp

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Posted 21 July 2007 - 09:21 AM

QUOTE
CNN about t...wikipedia... said that journalism should be left to the journalists,

Wow! Now there is an unbiased comment wink1.gif

And besuides, who said wikipedia is journalism? And who said jouranlists are good, when Michael Moore gets bumped from Larry King for Paris Hilton, the war is already lost IMHO, because colour me cynical, but that smacks of ratings over what matters.

QUOTE
Any citizen can now become a "journalist" without any sense of moral obligation to the community.

Bill O'Reilly seems to be the height of jounalistic integrity to me wink1.gif

The problem is that jounalists are scared of losing their pay check, and don't get that we are grown ups, and can decide for ourselves if a blog is valid or not. The USP of a newspaper is that they employ journalists, no one can deny that. But journos don't get that the USP of blogs is that they are fast and interactive, and they don't want to be journos. I seriously doubt 99.9% want to be journos, and couldn;t care less if they were considered second rate, because their raison d'etre is different.

QUOTE
Here is on example

And was it fixed eventually?

QUOTE
Now if colleges and universities

Pulease! Is wikipedia offering degrees now? If not, what a rediculously unfair standard to set!

[quote]despite the reality that wikipedia advertises itself as a factual "encyclopedia".p[.quote]
Look, I hate to link to my own article three times, but I covered that already and won't repeat myself. If you have a problem with my rationale, let me know smile.gif

#18 jehochman

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Posted 21 July 2007 - 09:45 AM

Traditional journalists have strong opinions about self-published news and information sites because these same sites threaten the very existance of mainstream media. MSM is under intense pressure due to loss of advertising revenue and loss of audience.

#19 noel_x99

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Posted 22 July 2007 - 12:47 PM

Very interesting discussion.

It seems to me that most of the problems with wikipedia, the Internet as a whole, and with journalism is that the general public automatically believes everything they see in print and on TV.

Journalism, in the past, used to have trust because there would be multiple sources to back up a story. Not anymore. Now journalism is owned by big media and it's amount money and ratings, not so much about the truth. I'm sure there is some true and accurate reporting by good journalists. Or there may be grains of truth (with a spin) or nothing more than rumors in much of today's journalism.

Blogs and wikis have that same characteristic. There are good bloggers that do have true and accurate stories. There may be others with a grain of truth, others that are rumors, and others that are just wild opiniong dressed as fact.

It's up to the reader to read intellignent sources and find their own "truth".

It's a scary thought when you hope the general public (fans of Paris Hilton, reality TV shows, etc.) can think for themselves.


Also, on the original topic. I agree it was too long and should have been two articles.

#20 arteworks

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Posted 22 July 2007 - 02:50 PM

Well what I am saying is that most blogs, etc. are clear to the reader that it is opinion. Wikipedia calls themselves the "free encyclopedia", which implies it is full of fact, when the reality of it is that is nothing more than opinion, contributed by any idiot, in fact the same idiots that consider paris hilton going to jail "news". That's why I don't like wikipedia - because, if they are going to put themselves out there as an encyclopedia, there should be some oversight (aside from the existing oversight which is nothing more than mob rule) via an editorial board or the like. Some sort of accountability. Otherwise, wikipedia should be honest about what they are, which is a collection of opinions of various segments of society that is not necessarily based in fact.

Projectphp - wikipedia advertises itself as an encyclopedia, which means that it is researched, verified fact which is suitable for citation at the university level. Of course they don't offer degrees and you have missed the point entirely. Encyclopedia Brittanica does not offer degrees, in fact I know of no encyclopedia which offers degrees, however Brittanica et. al are considered authoritative references which may be cited in academic writings. The fact that reputable colleges and universities do not allow citation to wikipedia as fact is demonstrative of the fact that the educated class understands that wikipedia is not a reliable source for fact despite its assertions to the contrary.

The point is that those that aren't "in the know", those who truly believe that paris hilton or britney spear's latest trials, trysts, and tribulations are news, are the very people that are most in need of editorial "protection" if you will, as those are the most easily swayed by opinion disguised as fact. Yes, reader beware, and it is the reader's responsibilty to ensure that a given source is credible. However, when a source such as wikipedia is not credible, and knows it, yet advertises themselves as credible "the free encyclopedia", the average consumer of information is not able to protect themselves.

As an example I was recently doing research on the silurian natural gas field in the indiana basin. There was no reference to this field, or in fact any silurian natural gas field, in wikipedia at all. A silurian natural gas field is a type of natural gas reservoir located in silurian strata formed between 400 and 440 million years ago, with specific characteristics unique to it. I created a wiki entry for "silurian natural gas field" which was summarily deleted, without discussion, talk, or so much as a message to me, by some idiot on wikipedia. It was not self promotion, contained zero external links, and contained an educational graphic which i had obtained permission to use from the owner. There is no way this could be interpreted as anything but a purely academic entry. Somebody, somewhere, did not like it for some reason, marked it for hasty deletion, and the page was gone. Now I spent time researching this, finding the graphic, and writing the text, thinking it would be a useful contribution. All it took was one idiot to delete the page summarily and all my efforts were wasted. This person was able to do so anonymously, without notifying me personally (all i got was a bot message), with absolutely zero accountability or review of the decision. This is the type of thing I am talking about.

If only everyone on wikipedia were like jehochman and others, who I believe contribute with a sense of responsibility and duty, then it would be fine. There is no screening process, however, anyone can contribute, and I suspect it was some environmentalist who did not want the content to appear who deleted the entry. This is why I am not inclined to participate in or contribute to the wiki project, and a loud-mouthed detractor of it, for which I bear no regrets.

Edited by qwerty, 22 July 2007 - 03:04 PM.


#21 jehochman

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Posted 22 July 2007 - 04:22 PM

Reputable universities don't allow citations to any encyclopedia in academic research. Encyclopedias are compilations of knowledge published elsewhere. Academic papers should dig down to the original source.

The intelligensia are the ones writing Wikipedia. There is tremendous oversight because every member of the public is invited to fact check and make additions. There's an article watchlist feature, so popular articles are watched by many people. If somebody tries to add rubbish to a popular article, it will be removed almost instantly.

#22 arteworks

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Posted 22 July 2007 - 04:41 PM

QUOTE(jehochman @ Jul 22 2007, 04:22 PM) View Post
The intelligensia are the ones writing Wikipedia.


um...no. anyone writes it. my 12 year old daughter could sign up for an account and contribute.

#23 BlueSky

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Posted 22 July 2007 - 05:08 PM

QUOTE(arteworks @ Jul 22 2007, 05:41 PM) View Post
um...no. anyone writes it. my 12 year old daughter could sign up for an account and contribute.


And her work would be subject to more scrutiny and review than most so-called journalists!

#24 Jill

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Posted 22 July 2007 - 06:15 PM

My 14 year old son does contribute. But he's usually cleaning up the spam.

#25 arteworks

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Posted 22 July 2007 - 06:20 PM

ask him if he's the one who deleted my silurian natural gas field entry. tongue.gif

#26 Jill

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Posted 22 July 2007 - 06:25 PM

Knowing you, Arteworks, and all the posts I've edited or deleted of yours, I'm sure there was good reason for it being deleted...sorry...

#27 arteworks

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Posted 22 July 2007 - 06:41 PM

ouch! well in this case, there actually wasn't. now i've got a black eye to go with my broken collarbone!

and i think it's great your son contributes. i think that's a great educational tool, getting kids involved in the process.

#28 Jill

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Posted 22 July 2007 - 07:00 PM

I'm sure you didn't think your posts here that were removed were "bad" either.

Wikipedia has even stronger rules than we have, although ours are pretty strong. Perhaps if you re-read their rules very, very carefully and try submitting again it might get through. But you have to follow the rules to the letter.



#29 arteworks

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Posted 22 July 2007 - 07:22 PM

actually jill i do understand the HR issues and i've been "good" for quite a while now. plus it's your site and it doesn't matter what i think. you don't advertise your site as an encyclopedia like wiki does. your site has rules, the equivalent of an editorial review board, and there is accountability. in fact if wiki was as well organized and accountable as HR was i probably wouldn't be complaining. you hold people to certain standards or they can't contribute.

now if you ran your forum where everyone had moderator capability, and anyone could edit and delete other people's posts, i would be disgruntled and not use your site either. it would be anarchy.



#30 projectphp

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Posted 22 July 2007 - 08:29 PM

But what is an encyclopedia? Define what it should be for me,a nd then we can comapre wikipedia to it.

The problem is honestly with people's definition of encyclopedia, not with Wikipedia.




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