36 replies to this topic

[bwelford]

Hypothesis

PageRank may now have a lower weighting in the Google ranking algorithm than it did say 6 months ago before all the recent Google upheavals.

Possible evidence

Internal pages in a web site are now more often showing in SERP's, whereas before it was most often the home page (say index.htm) that appeared in the listings.

Basis of reasoning

Normally the home page has a higher PageRank than internal pages, since most backlinks point to the home page. Even though a home page may have lower keyword content than an internal page, in the past the PageRank factor may have vaulted the home page higher in the SERP's. This happens less frequently now.

Questions
1. Has anyone else seen internal pages scoring higher than home pages in SERP's?

2. Do you agree with this PageRank hypothesis or do you have some other explanation?

Barry Welford

[Peter]

Barry,

I have seen internal pages score better too. This seems to happens more often when longer search phrases are used.

I don't think that Google has changed its algorithms to give less importance to page rank. Page rank is specifically used to order the results.

What could be the case that they are now better in matching the search term with the content of the page. This results in less pages to order by page rank.

Google first selects all the pages that seem to match, and then uses the PR to determine the position in the SERPs. If they manage now to do a better job in finding the pages, or they simply decided that the match should be better/closer than before, then it is very well possible that less start pages show up.

Regards,

Peter

[qwerty]

I don't think that Google has changed its algorithms to give less importance to page rank. Page rank is specifically used to order the results.

I don't think that's correct, Peter. As I understand it, the results of a search are listed in the order of relevance to the query, which involves the complete algo, not just PR.

[Peter]

Chris,

Thank you for your reply. I started this thread with the purpose to discuss PR. I noticed that many people (including myself) have problems understanding what PR is all about. Google believes it is very important. As far as I understand it, PR is the main idea behind Google. Besides that they found better, and more importantly, faster ways to come up with the results.

This is what Google says about PR:

Page Rank is an excelent way to prioritize the results of web keuword searches. For most popular subjects, a simple text matching search that is restricted to web page titles performs admirably when PR prioritizes the results

I don't think that PR is the only thing that is involved when they determine the positions in the SERPs. I know there are many more factors involved.

The relevance is more important, and if what barry said is correct, then I can only assume that Google is getting better in determining the relevance of a page compared to the search string. In my opinion PR has nothing to do with what he observed.

Regards,

Peter

PS. I am very happy with this discussion. I learn a lot from it. It may not have a direct influence on SEO, but understanding the way a search engine works has a positive background influence. I know I can read it all in the different white papers and articles that have been written, but a discussion has the nice extra that you get to see the same thing written in different ways, and that helps a lot in understanding things.

[Debra]

PS. I am very happy with this discussion. I learn a lot from it.

Thank you for saying that Peter. It's what we're here for!

[Bernard]

Barry, have you noticed the internal page / home page "phenomenon" with pages that were optimized "equally" for the same query? I have not seen any SERPs that would lead me to validate your hypothesis.

[bwelford]

Bernard

I think it is almost impossible to have 'pages that were optimized "equally" for the same query'. By this, you presumably mean without taking PageRank into account. However I would think that many internal pages would have more text than home pages, and so potentially could be made to be higher ranking for given key words. In the past, I seem to remember home pages always were preferentially listed, presumably based on higher PageRank.

This phenomenon of internal pages being listed in SERP's rather than home pages was noted in the WebMasterWorld Forum some weeks past, without anyone suggesting why this was happening.

None of this is very scientific, which is why I asked whether others had the same feeling.

Barry Welford

[Peter]

Just do a search on anything,.. and you find lots of pages that are not the index.html

Seems pretty logical now that I think about it. PR has nothing to do with it. First a list of pages is determined by googles text matching search. Here all pages have an equal chance, home pages and internal pages. Then the PR will determine which one goes to the top. Logically the chance that that is a index.html is bigger because they have (on average) higher page ranks.

But this does not mean internal pages don't show up. It is just a fact that on average start pages have higher PRs.

Regards,

Peter

[Mel]

...First a list of pages is determined by googles text matching search. Here all pages have an equal chance, home pages and internal pages. Then the PR will determine which one goes to the top...

I'm afraid its not quite that simple Peter, as if the final ranking were done by PageRank then the SERPs would be listed in PR order, but they are not.

More likely is that PageRank is a minimal factor applied to the ranking list which is enough to effect the position of pages which rank closely on the other portions of the Google algo, but is not enough to bring a page to the top of the SERPs if it does not already have a high ranking on the other portions of the algo.

Personally I take the minute information Google makes public with a grain of salt; I would not put it past Google to try to change our focus a bit (like the toolbar has)

[Debra]

Google does return results by page rank in it's directory.

Unlike other directories that can only list web pages alphabetically regardless of how good they are, the web pages in the Google directory are ordered according to Google's patented PageRank™ technologyhttp://www.google.com/intl/en/dirhelp.html#pagerank

Great tool to help with link building campaigns!

[Peter]

Hi Mell,

I'm afraid its not quite that simple Peter, as if the final ranking were done by PageRank then the SERPs would be listed in PR order, but they are not.

Yes you are right there, I may have put it a bit too simple. What I believe is that within the category of the search term, Google creates sub-categories. Prioritizes those first, and then uses PR to determine the ranking within the sub-categories.

I know this is still a little too simple, but closer to your observations.

I do not believe that PR is a minimal factor in Googles ranking algorithms. It is just not used as simple as we (including me) thought. But I still like this PR subject, even though it is not of much use for optimizing a web site.

Would you like this explanation better?

Peter

[azs]

A late addition to this topic if I may...

What if a page links to me with little or no PR, but the index page of that site is a 4+? How does Google regard a scenario like this?

azs

[Haystack]

Hi azs, every page is viewed individually, so the PR of other pages on the same domain name has no effect on the page linking to you.

[azs]

So if I understand you correctly...the actual page that contains a link back to my site should ideally be a 4+...regardless of what the linking site's index page ranks? It seems hard enough to find high ranking sites (relevant to my business) in terms of PR, let alone finding a 4+ PR for a site's internal page that would contain the link heading got me. Am I wrong to assume a site’s highest ranked page will usually be their homepage? And am I also wrong to assume that if these sites agree to link to me - it's unlikely they would want the link coming from their homepage?

[Haystack]

That's right about the PR and you're pretty safe assuming company's won't use their homepage for links to other web sites.

But a site doesn't have to be a PR4 to be worthy of requesting a link from. Get one from any site that's relevant and willing.

Also, check for industry related directories, local/regional directories, and do competitive analysis to find other linking opportunities.