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Keyword Research - I Need Some Direction...


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43 replies to this topic

#1 Lynn Terry

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Posted 10 August 2003 - 08:48 AM

I'm sitting in WordTracker... and I'm lost :)

I know that I am looking for "my diamond in the rough" keyword and/or keyword phrase. A handful of them actually - as I want to optimize some pages/sections differently (according to content).

I want to find that perfect little match that is searched often enough to suit me but produces the fewest websites as a result... Ideally at least 100x a day but would easily go for 30-50 if there were very few results and it was highly targeted...

Is there a "trick" to all of this? I've been wading through words for hours LOL... or perhaps a good WordTracker tutorial that you'd highly recommend?

Maybe I'm just a coffee short this morning :P

#2 compar

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Posted 10 August 2003 - 10:16 AM

I'm sitting in WordTracker... and I'm lost  :)

Is there a "trick" to all of this? I've been wading through words for hours LOL... or perhaps a good WordTracker tutorial that you'd highly recommend?

Your not alone in this. I use WordTracker all the time but am never sure I have done it right or extracted all the magic from it that is supposed to be available.

What I think you are talking about in particular -- the magic phrase that nobody else uses -- is the KEI value. If you have folllowed Jill's writtings she calims to be a great admirer and user of WordTracker -- I hope that isn't putting words in her mouth -- but she says she ignores the KEI factor.

So if you are going to ignore the KEI factor what else have you got left? All I can see is a tools that will give you the count, hence popularity of a key word phrase, and suggest a whole bunch of related variations or alternatives that you may not have not thought of.

In fact if this is all WordTracker will give you I feel it is over priced. You can get almost this same information from Overture for free.

#3 Lynn Terry

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Posted 10 August 2003 - 10:31 AM

Thanks for your response, Bob!

I have decided that WordTracker is more accurate than Overture's tool... but I'm open to hearing both sides on that.

Do you care to expound on KEI?

As a webmaster, I'm no newbie to optimizing web pages for the search engines, but keyword research (and designing a website around a keyword-marketing-strategy) I AM new to (somewhat)... but really want to get this down!!

Thanks again - Really glad to have found this group!!

#4 Jill

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Posted 10 August 2003 - 10:38 AM

Welcome, Lynn! :)

You said:

I want to find that perfect little match that is searched often enough to suit me but produces the fewest websites as a result...


I would suggest that you don't need to find the one that produces the fewest websites as a result. Which is what Compar was alluding to in saying that I ignore the KEI factor.

If you find good keyword phrases that are completely relevant and specific to what your site is all about, it shouldn't matter how many sites happen to use those phrases on their pages. Sure, you can visit the top 10 or 20 pages that use the words and see if they are actually optimized well for the phrase, but YOU have the advantage over them all, because you will actually optimize specifically for the phrases (not just use them per chance).

Check to see if the top sites have the keyword phrase in their Title tags. That's a good start. Then check if they're using them within the copy on the page, and if so, is it just once or twice? Then check the backwards links of the top pages. Do they have hundreds? Thousands? Or just 5?

The number of pages that show up for a keyword phrase doesn't mean anything. The number of "optimized" pages is what matters.

YOU can beat most pages because most people don't have a clue about SEO!

Good luck! :P

Jill

#5 DanThies

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Posted 10 August 2003 - 11:19 AM

YOU can beat most pages because most people don't have a clue about SEO!

Right on, but it's even better than that. You can beat a lot more because they just aren't trying, or aren't targeting the same things.

If you recall, last summer my stupid little sales letter was right up there with highrankings.com for "search engine optimization" on Google. Not too hard, since you weren't laser-targeting that specific search term, and I had an optimized page.

But that brings up the other side of the coin, which is that a lot of folks are choosing not to optimize, or at least overlooking some search terms, because they can't figure out how to work it into their copy.

Removing the words "search engine optimization" from my headline dropped my rankings for that term off the map, but the new headline also tripled the sales. I'm sure there's some way I could have found a "middle ground," but I'm probably not the only business owner who's more worried about converting the visitors they have.

#6 mcanerin

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Posted 10 August 2003 - 11:25 AM

Hi Lynn! If no one has welcomed you yet, welcome!

What you are talking about is the KEI formula. It's a great little formula but many of us have discovered that using it exclusively can cause problems.

Good things about KEI is that it's easy to understand, can be generated by computer, often has true gems, and can surprise you with some phrases you would have never thought of.

Bad things are that it IS computer generated, and therefore skips steps that only a human could do (more about that in a sec), and can steer you AWAY from great keywords. Further, the data it uses is historical and therefore not authoritative.

One of the problems with KEI is that it's design tends to eliminate the popular and obvious in favor of the obscure. This is great if you are looking for a niche. But what if you offer services that are common (like website design). Should you avoid using the term on your site in favor of something that has less than 5,080,000 competing sites? Of course not! It's what you do. And getting to the top of the SERPS in a popular keyword is not a bad thing to aim for. Somebody has to be there.

KEI should be the last of 4 steps in keyword analysis. First, describe what you do clearly. Then look at your competitors and see what they are doing (competitors are defined as those taking traffic from you - therefore you only focus on those who are above you or at the top in the search engines for terms). Third, add industry specific terms and jargon, along with some popular terms that are used in conjunction with your product (like colors, new/used, ect). THEN do a KEI to discover anything you've missed up to this point.

If you do this in the wrong order you can find yourself focusing on niches to the point of ignoring what your site is about.

Analysis tools only look at historical data and then try to extrapolate future behavior from it. The lower the initial "P" popularity part of this formula is, the higher the KEI and, unfortunately, the lower the reliability.

Lets say that you found a term with a KEI of 10,000. Great! If you look closely, however, likely there was only one or 2 people doing a couple searches each on the term - maybe (you don't know) in the space of 5 minutes, looking for something on a whim. You, as a designer, see this great KEI and decide to focus a page of your site on it. Not a good idea. In my humble opinion, anything with a popularity of less than 50 per month is more likely to be a statistical glitch than useful information. Maybe that term will never be searched for again. Maybe it was your client trying to find his own website before he finally decided to contact an SEO!

Sometimes people vainly trying to find a site (even their own) that they know is there but isn't listed yet type in all sorts of increasingly desperate search terms. Not a good base from which to develop a business plan or website.

Also, maybe it is easier to get ranked higher if there are only 500 competing sites compared to 5 million. But is there a practical difference between 3 million competing sites and 5 million? Honestly, the only thing that matters in difficulty of ranking is the quality of the SEO in sites in the top 30. This is why you do the competition check before the KEI. It's more important.

My final point is that you really don't know what someone will search on for your service or product in the future. All you know is that it will be somehow related to your service or product. Talk about your service or product both specifically and generally and your site will come up on niche searches that may have never even been done before. The first time someone searches for something, someones website almost always comes up - why not you? Look to the future, not the past.

I'll post a Wordtracker Tutorial that would help with all 4 steps later if you want.

Recap:

1. Describe your product or service, ignoring "keywords" per se That's your basic copy.
2. Visit the top 5 non-paid sites (could be numbers 6-10) and do a competition check. Whats good? What's bad? What keywords are they using? Fill out or edit your basic copy to reflect what you just learned.
3. Check forums, information sites and FAQ's in the subject area and take note of trends and commonly used terms that people who are potential customers use. Fill out or edit your basic copy to reflect what you just learned.
4. Do a KEI and look for niche terms. You can actually skip the KEI and just use Overture or Google to tell you how many times particular niche terms have been used. Make some final adjustments based on this.

I hope this helps rather than confuses.

Wow, it took me so long to write this that serveral other people have posted in the meantime. Oops.

Yours,
Ian

#7 compar

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Posted 10 August 2003 - 12:11 PM

While we are on the topic of the KEI analysis in WordTracker has anybody notice how wildly different it can be for the same phrase from search engine to search engine?

For instance you might find a phrase that has an outstanding KEI value in Google, but if you check it in MSN or Altavista is is completed different. This inconsistency even on generic type phrases has always made me question the importance and relevance of this factor.

#8 compar

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Posted 10 August 2003 - 12:24 PM

I have decided that WordTracker is more accurate than Overture's tool... but I'm open to hearing both sides on that.

I'm interested in how you came to this conclusion. WordTracker gives you more information -- both the number of times a keyword phrase was searched on and the number of web sites listed by the search engines when the phrase is searched on. However one of the databases you can use within WordTracker is the Overture database.

In fact one of the problems I have with WordTracker is deciding which database to use. Just like the KEI factor the popularity and ranking of search terms can be significantly different between databases. So while there is no doubt WordTracker give you more info than Overture if you are going to ignore the KEI factor, and like me end up using the Overture database within WordTracker most of the time, then I can't see how Wordtracker is significantly more accurate or valuable?

#9 Mel

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Posted 12 August 2003 - 04:59 AM

Hi Bob as an exercise compare the number of searches that Overture say they had last month with the results for the same keywords for Google from Wordtracker.

Every time I do this I get many many more searches for any search term on Overture than on Google, yet Google has more traffic???

#10 Mel

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Posted 12 August 2003 - 05:23 AM

Hi Lynn:
Let me address your original concern and tell you how I use Wordtracker.

First I use the compressed database, since it seems to contain all the search terms that the comprehensive database does, but the comprehensive DB breaks them down into singulars and plurals, caps and no caps, etc, and at this point I'm not worried about those fine distinctions.

I enter my best search terms from my brainstorming sessions and add every word to the results except those I am sure do not apply to my site. I very quickly generate a list of perhaps 300 keyphrases. Then I go to step two and cull terms that I think do not fit my campaign for any reason, then export those results (with all the traffic ) to a text file and import that file into a spreadsheet.

I use the top traffic word to set up a category then go through my list and put a category number next to each phrase that I think fits this category.

I then sort my spreadsheet by that category and repeat the process setting up more and more categories until I have no phrases left. Then inspect each category and choose 3 phrases to target for a page that matches that category. (gut feeling helps here)

Note that I have not used the competition search at all, simply because I already know that there are only ten pages competing for the position I want, the first page.

When I look at those ten pages for my search term, I already have a very good idea of how much work its going to be to get a first page ranking on that term.

Now you need to find out how these phrases really fare traffice wise in Google and I use mini Adwords campaigns for this, but thats beyond Wordtracker.

#11 compar

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Posted 12 August 2003 - 06:37 AM

Now you need to find out how these phrases really fare traffice wise in Google and I use mini Adwords campaigns for this, but thats beyond Wordtracker.

This question may be changing the direction of this thread, but can you explain exactly what you mean by a "mini" AdWord campaign?

#12 Mel

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Posted 12 August 2003 - 10:24 AM

Sure Bob:
I only run the campaign long enough to gain a sense of what traffic and clickthroughs I can achieve on various keywords, and also on what combination of title and description gets the most clicks, sometimes only a week is enough.

#13 Lynn Terry

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Posted 12 August 2003 - 11:14 AM

Wow, Okay, you guys have given me a lot to go on here... Your input is valuable (obviously) and VERY much appreciated!

I'm working with three sites on three different topics (a sort of a case-study if you will). Two of them being relatively simple to choose keywords & phrases for, the third needing to be totally revamped and some serious thought put into marketing strategy.

Learning the ins and outs of keyword research has been my only setback so far... I'm going to sit down and focus on the different options and see what I can come up with. I have myself in the mindset that this is the most important step (choosing which keywords/phrases to optimize the site/pages for). I've listened in to the tips of several that have been successful with highly targeted SE traffic... and learning everything that I can. Still wide open if you have any suggestions!

Thanks again - your replies have been very helpful so far!


p.s. - Bob, I came to that conclusion from this discussion:
http://www.selfstart...topic.php?t=210
Like I said - open for discussion on that one - always in learning mode!

#14 compar

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Posted 12 August 2003 - 04:10 PM

Sure Bob:
I only run the campaign long enough to gain a sense of what traffic and clickthroughs I can achieve on various keywords, and also on what combination of title and description gets the most clicks, sometimes only a week is enough.

Mel,

That's interesting. But how can you test your title and description with the limited field length that AdWords allow?

The other problem I have had with AdWord is despite the fact that they claim you can be getting click throughs in 15 minutes when I have added additional keywords to a campaign it has taken 2 or 3 days before I started getting any exposure on these words.

I wrote them about it and they said the ad had to be evaluated against each new search term before your ad is displayed.

#15 Mel

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Posted 13 August 2003 - 08:58 AM

HI Bob
Obviously you can't use your page title and meta description in Adwords, (or your page content for example, but you can test one or two keywords at at time. Often changing the adwords title around a bit can result in improved or deteriorated click throughs, and what you can learn from this can be imported into the construction of your web pages.

Yep to could be faster but then its lots faster than waiting for your pages to be spidered and indexed




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