49 replies to this topic

[Denyse]

I have been studying web site development at night for the past three and a half years at our local community college.

We learned pretty much zip about SEO, and after designing a site for a customer, he asked me to optimise it.

Here is how I set up my tarifs (these are in Canadian $):

Optimisation : 25$ minimum 5 pages
additional pages 5$/page

Submissions : 60$ per submission

Express submission charges :
Charged to the customers credit card or paid in advance, with a 25% surcharge

I suggested a list of directories to submit to and he picked 3 free ones -- DMOZ, Yahoo (in french), and La toile du Quebec (a Quebec specific french directory) and I also proposed a list of keyword phrases.

Since at the time we designed the site we knew nothing about SEO, the site was set up with frames and image links. I added text menues, and no frame text. Added the whole meta requirements, and keyword rich text on the alt tags. And other than the frame problem (which thanks to this forum I now know how to solve with self-referencing framesets) I think I did a pretty credible SEO job.

My summer project has been to educate myself, and I discovered I love it and would like to specialise in this field.

My problem is - this seems like alot of work for the little amount I billed. And now I have a potential client (still have to do my pitch, next week hopefully) who designs sites and wants someone to SEO.

So my question to all you experts is, how do you all go about evaluating and billing the work, and still make a living ?


Denyse

[Jill]

Probably no help, but I've always pretty much just pulled the prices out of the air!

Look at what other companies are charging and start from there. Charge enough to make it worthwhile for you. If you need more work, charge low prices in order to make something. If you get too busy, raise the prices.

I find that the market demand helps me price my stuff. It's always easy to tell if I'm charging too little because I get way too much work. And if I find that I have no work at all, I'm probably charging too much.

Jill

[patrickh]

The only time I have to deal with this is when I do freelance work, and I have always given people two choices: pay me hourly or a flat monthly fee. I don't like hourly because 1) having to keep track of every minute you work on a project is no fun, and 2) it makes the pay fluxuate a bit. I think a monthly fee is more appropriate for SEO, because it is a constant effort with me with checking rankings every few days, little tweaks here and there, checking the logs, running reports, etc. Charging $25 a page could very well end up being a multi month investment on your part, which is a sorta bad deal for you IMO.

[mcanerin]

I think you are under billing for sure. I'm in Canada too (Calgary) and had the same problem. I also know the issue about "I haven't done it before and have no results or happy customers so how can I actually charge anything" mentality.

I had an advantage in that I was previously consulting and had decided to charge no less than $60 per hour or part of an hour. That can sound like a lot when you are an hourly employee, but remember there can be a lot of down time when you are starting out on your own. I also worked for large corporations as part of a negotiation team and have successfully negotiated several multi-million dollar contracts, so I know in my heart people are willing to pay if you ask them right and offer something of equal value. The key is, what is SEO worth?

Figure (and these are minimum amounts for someone with a lot of practice) 1 hour of Keyword research, 2 hours to optimise a handful of pages, 1 hour to submit the site (with custom descriptions), and at least 2 hours to follow up with logs and fixes. That's 6 hours, and believe me, I rounded down. $360 minimum. Or start getting used to being a not-for-profit company

Then I talked to some friends in this area (not SEO, Calgary business community) and discussed the rates. When they thought it was for website design they actually thought it was average, but when I explained the difference between design and SEO they all agreed it was too low. So I bumped it up to $500.

Then I contacted my first (paying) customer - a large liquor store owner - through my friend Rob. Rob's a great advantage for me because he's got a lot of marketing knowledge, runs his own business, and although he's scared to "break" something by messing with the settings, uses computers all the time for surfing, word, etc. Just like most potential small business clients.

At that point 2 things happened. First, Rob was positive I could get more money out of this client (after all, they were paying thousands per month on flyers) and I stopped by Google and read their recommendations for SEO's. At the time, they were recommending Money Back Guarantees (they don't anymore, for various reasons, basically because it's none of their business).

One problem with money back is the possibility that the client will allow you to optimize the site then demand their money back after the results are in, or make unreasonable demands. I came up with a way around this concern (I'm a lawyer so I have a bit of an advantage here) and then said its $500 per month for 3 months.

They said "WHAT!", and I said "I offer a 100% moneyback guarantee" and showed them the rules for it (Don't offer it without rules, IMHO) and pointed out what traditional advertising costs. They said OK.

They paid (in advance) and have since referred others. The bottom line is, don't be shy. It's a lot easier to come down in price than to raise them later. Second, get feedback from others - as you gain confidence and skills your ability to ask for money increases too.

SEO is worth more than website design for all but the most complex sites. If someone says "but my site only cost me x, why are you charging more?" you can point out that just because you can buy a telephone for $14.95 doesn't mean the phone company won't charge you more than that PER MONTH for a business plan. It's not the object, it's how it's used. A popular but plain site is worth more than a pretty but invisible one. It's 2 different things.

Hope that helps,

Ian

[Denyse]

Thanks Mcanerin,
So I guess what your saying is to evaluate how much time this job can take and then quote a rounded upped total to the customer.

Because to me 500$ for a couple of pages sounds ok, but does not work for a site with 75 to 125 pages! And what if your getting a site that's designed with frames and other nono's and you have to do a redesign.

Would you charge for the time you put in to evaluate the site and make recommendations?

Denyse

[Jill]

Figure (and these are minimum amounts for someone with a lot of practice) 1 hour of Keyword research, 2 hours to optimise a handful of pages, 1 hour to submit the site (with custom descriptions), and at least 2 hours to follow up with logs and fixes.

You missed the MOST important step and the most time consuming -- writing the copy! For even a small site of 5 pages, you're talking at least 5 hours, probably more for researching the products, etc.

Jill

[Denyse]

OK Jill, please explain that.

You say (elsewhere) that you are not a copywriter - but if I understand this post, the SEO job implies copywriting as a large part of it.

Denyse

[patrickh]

... I said "I offer a 100% moneyback guarantee" and showed them the rules for it (Don't offer it without rules, IMHO) and pointed out what traditional advertising costs.

Would you mind sharing how you present your money back guaruntee and what rules you have? I would like to offer something to clients, but don't want it to be "You will be top 3 or I don't get paid!"; Would love to see how someone else does it.

[Denyse]

Mcanerin,
What's the link to that google recomendations for SEO please

Denyse

[patrickh]

http://www.google.co...asters/seo.html. The money back guaruntee is still present on the page...

For your own safety, you should insist on a full and unconditional money-back guarantee.

[Denyse]

Thanks for the adress but is'nt that more of a warning to webmasters against SEOs rather than recommendations for SEOs????

Denyse

[mcanerin]

Sorry, that's what I get for answering questions after midnight!

Jill is absolutely correct about the copy. I've had the blessing of not having to have needed to do a lot of it so far, since my "normal" client has a website that naturally talks about his/her stuff and is already text rich. So far all I've needed to to is rewrite some text on 2-3 pages to get top rankings. I'm very careful to point out I'm an SEO and not a web designer or copywriter. Yes I can do both but I don't specialize in it. I'd rather get an expert.

Don't get dragged into redesigning a site when you think you are just doing SEO. If a redesign is necessary then bill it as a separate item. The worst thing you can do for our industry is perpetuate the myth that SEO is just web design (IMHO). It's not. There are a lot of web designers out there "throwing in SEO" and they are NOT usually helping their clients.

Yes, SEO is part and parcel of a great website. But a website is a combination of things like copywriting, graphics design, server technologies, database optimisation, and so forth. It should not be a surprise that these roles are best done by specialists who have cross training, rather than generalists. Many large sites only have specialists (I think that goes too far in some cases).

In the case of a new site, or one that is mostly a "buy now" ad, obviously there is a lot more work! I don't charge by the hour in a pure fashion, but rather in a mixed format. I do an estimate for the site based on the hours I think it will take and give that number as the cost. Now there is no incentive for me to "drag things out". I wouldn't, but the client doesn't know that and now they have a control on costs (Important in the sales process)

At the same time I tell them that anything outside of this (written - always written) estimate is billed by the hour. This helps prevent "feature creep" - you know, the "hey, can you change that graphic and re-word some of that while you are at it, and oh by the way can you fix my computer too?" Feature creep usually sounds small and easy, and as an eager and customer service oriented person you naturally want to "throw it in". Bad, Bad, Bad. It usually won't end. (I make exceptions to this on occasion but only when I make it very clear that anything else costs and I'm breaking the rules just for them).

I usually do an initial assessment for free. Sure, it's unpaid work but I look at it as marketing. The assessment helps both parties understand what's going on and what needs to be done, which makes the sale easier and lessens confusion later. I don't get into juicy details or roadmaps though - you don't teach them how to go off and either do it themselves or give your plan to their webmaster to do. That happens in all consulting industries, expect it to happen here too!

I consider Googles warning against SEO practices customers should avoid (and look for) as a really good list of things I should avoid (and do) as well.

I do a 3 Phase process for SEO (this isn't a master plan, or perfection in a box, it's just how I do it). Over a period of 3 Months I charge $500 per month (at $60/hour that's roughly one full day per month).

Phase 1 - I prepare the site for the search engines to come (Optimisation)
Phase 2 - I send the search engines to the site (submissions and linking)
Phase 3 - I analyse the traffic (logs) and make adjustments as needed

Then of course I offer ongoing monthly monitoring (not submission - thats a scam usually).

At the beginning of each phase, I cash their check (no work until). Then at the end of each Phase I give the client a report on exactly what I did and what the next Phase is, along with an invoice for the next Phase and a VERY CLEAR notice that by paying for the next phase they are indicating that they are satisfied with the last Phase and don't want their money back.

That way I can take the money out of trust and use it, and I don't have to worry about them coming back after the whole project and then complaining about something. By going in steps like this the client stays in the loop and is less likely to complain, and if they do, you know NOW and not later when it's too late. It also minimizes my potential losses in the event that either I screw up or the customer is a ripoff artist.

I NEVER guarantee a specific placement - only satisfaction. If all the customer wants is to be ahead of their competition, then that's what will satisfy them. I always try to get them to the very top, but I consider the effort to be successful if they are in top 30 for at least half of their keywords, and that's a pretty low expectation. I've always achieved much better than that. It's better to surprise them with good results than bad.

And I always tell them that I don't control the search engines, that anyone can buy their way to the top, and they can too if they want to (I'll help them set it up). If they know that the top sites in a catagory are all paid for, then they will either want to pay too, or will simply want to be really high in the Non-Paid List (ie number 6 or whatever). It's all on how you present it.

I hope that helps. I have to start making shorter posts - Sorry Jill.

Ian

[Scottie]

Don't apologize! That is excellent advice. I'm taking notes...

[Jill]

OK Jill, please explain that.

You say (elsewhere) that you are not a copywriter - but if I understand this post, the SEO job implies copywriting as a large part of it.

Yep, copy is the most critical part as far as I'm concerned.

That's why I work with professional SEO copywriters. Writing the copy is a good half or more of any SEO work that I do. Nice to be able to sub it out!

Jill

[idrive]

Would you charge for the time you put in to evaluate the site and make recommendations?

Now this is an interesting question! Before I write a proposal for someone I need to look at their site and see how much potential work is involved. Some clients service can be broken down into 4 segments and therefore requires 4 streams of keyword research. For example - manufacturing of CDs or DVDs - you have duplication, graphic design, logistics, mastering...plus information on copyright etc. That's like optimizing 4 websites ;-)

Recently I quoted a price over the phone while looking at a potential client's site...he then wanted it in writing so I wrote a detailed proposal on where the money is going. I decided to "ask for the sale" as you are trained to do in retail - and it worked! He agreed to sign a contract. So I drew up a contract. And now all of a sudden the price has become too expensive. Do you know how much time I have spent with this client? I refuse to lower my fees...though I will offer two lesser services than consulting - a keyword research report and a generic guideline on how to implement or a report detailed specifically for your site - basically everything I would have done to optimize the site. This client is interested in getting total optimization for the price of the keyword research report! Bite me!!!!!!!!!!!

I have typically offered three months of tweaking and tracking (maintenance) with my contracts - this gives me time to make changes in case I forgot something, etc. and I hope that clients like the monthly reporting and will want to continue with a maintenance contract.

Recently I have decided to combine submission with maintenance. Submission doesn't take all that long, but is a critical point in their campaign. I don't want a client to outsource their webdesign to another firm and then come to me just for submission. So I am aiming to offer a submission and maintenance package in three month increments. I am learning that steady income is better than one quick cheque