33 replies to this topic

[livestatic]

Hello everyone,

I wanted to know if it was OK to copy a competitors keyword structure. Let's say I sell flowers, and one of my competitors landing pages are define as follows:

Title: flower delivery | send flowers online | Anniversary flowers

Meta description: Anniversary Flower Bouquets, Anniversary Flower Arrangement, Anniversary Gift Flowers, Anniversary Flower Basket

Keywords: Send flowers online as well as Anniversary gift ideas including Anniversary flowers and gift basket


Now, all that are included in the aforementioned settings are all generic words and without any trademarks or copyrighted. I would think it's OK for me to do this however, this is one page - lets say they have 20 landing pages like this all with generic words. Can I copy the approach and mimic their strategy and also have 20 pages that would look extremely similar to their 20 pages and get away with it? Of course.... I have my own unique content all I want to know if I can copy they generic keyword and title structure, or maybe just switch the keywords around a bit which will keep the same words but in a different order.


Thanks,

[jtaylor123]

umm....I can understand the keywords because I'm sure a lot of people use those, but you can't write your own meta description?

Can't say I know anything about the legality of this. Why would that be illegal?

[livestatic]

umm....I can understand the keywords because I'm sure a lot of people use those, but you can't write your own meta description?

Can't say I know anything about the legality of this. Why would that be illegal?

OK, I could and will write my own meta description, however this particular site is dominating the long tail of the product we are commonly selling. And I notice that they do the following:

title: they keep it short as possible, sometimes when is one key phrase like "buy blue widgets" they do this instead - " buy blue widgets, widgets" they repeat the main keyword. again they only do this if the phrase is short.

meta description: OK this is where I see a really different strategy. instead of putting in here something like "we buy and sell all types of widgets online" they actually insert their keywords phrases in here - "buy blue widgets online, purchase red widgets, wholesale black widgets..........." you get the idea.

Keywords: here they actually write their meta description - "Big Bad Widgets - we are a whole distributor of widgets."

They swap the meta and description on all of their 2000+ pages ......They are not a big company and have not been around a long time "December 2004" yet they are basically are dominating the long tail and are raking higher than the "big boys" in our industry..... I am wondering if this is the way to go.

I know there are so many other different factors that could lead to their dominance, however some of the landing pages have like 2 IBL and are top 3 in the SERPs for a specific term - If you think about it the SE chooses to display the title and the description and not keywords, therefore if your descriptions have only 4 to 5 key phrases (making the page more relevant) they are going to show up in the SE results -- well on this point i am not sure of this, that's what I am trying to figure out

Edited by livestatic, 15 December 2006 - 03:00 PM.

[torka]

If you're talking about the keywords meta tag, it's effect ranges from miniscule to nonexistent, depending on which SE you're talking about (if it's Google, think "non existent" -- they don't index that tag at all).

Bottom line, copying your competitors keywords tag won't do you any good.

If you want to try to optimize for the same keyphrases they're apparently using, you certainly can. However, you should be aware that some of us like to put bogus key phrase information in our keywords meta just to trip up people who might think it's important and try to use the information somehow. (Really! It's kinda fun. )

Sometimes other pages rank well in spite of what they do to "optimize" -- not because of it. By simply copying their tactics, you run the risk of merely repeating their mistakes. And even if they've done a bang-up job, you've got to do something better than what they're doing -- not just copy them -- if you want better results.

I think you'd really benefit from reading the articles linked from our [url=http://www.highrankings.com/forum/index.php/topic/833-tips-for-new-seos/]Tips for Newbies[/url] thread.

--Torka

[Connie]

Every page should have a unique title, and description. You should use a phrase in both that describes the content of that page. If your selling wood widgets, then "Wood Widgets" should be part of the phrase you use.

The keyword meta tag is probably not to important, but at one time Yahoo suggested using it for common misspellings. So if you use it it should only concentrate on the keywords that are relevant to the page.

Google may or may not consider the keyword meta tag today, but they might tomorrow.

If two sites are selling the same product, obviously there will be some similarity in the tags. I don't think that is an excuse to copy another sites tags.

[Jill]

Can I copy the approach and mimic their strategy and also have 20 pages that would look extremely similar to their 20 pages and get away with it?

Of course it's illegal. You can't take other people's stuff word-for-word. Period.

Why is it so hard for people to have an original thought, idea or website these days?

[legalguy]

You cannot be successfully sued for copying common words.

The words and combinations are in common use and are in the "public domain."

[Jill]

You cannot be successfully sued for copying common words.

Of course you can.

Are you saying you can just copy someone's whole article that is made up of common words? That's ridiculous.

[Scottie]

Think about this logically for a moment (legalities and ethics aside.)

If the engines already have a fully-established site at the top of the listings using these exact words in this order, why would they want a second one?

They are doing better at filtering out duplicate content and no doubt, the established site will continue to do well while your ripoff site gets filtered out of the results.

Still sound like a good idea to you?

[livestatic]

Legalguy

Thanks for answering

Jill

You mean to tell me that if I copy the generic keywords in your title “Search Engine Optimization Information and Search Engine Marketing Tips” and your meta keywords “optimizing site,search engine optimization,search engine marketing,seo copywriting,” of your main site you can sue me? I know you have been around for a while but chances are you weren’t the first to use this online .

“Are you saying you can just copy someone's whole article that is made up of common words? That's ridiculous.”

Your missing the point it’s not a whole article its two to three generic phrases. A lot of people are using the exact same title that your very own page has. I am asking is this an effective thing to do for the SE’s.

allintitle

“Why is it so hard for people to have an original thought, idea or website these days”

I don’t think I was clear in my question, I have 100% original content, design, url directory names. I am going to use your site for example:

Jill’s title: Search Engine Optimization Information and Search Engine Marketing tips

My title: Search Engine Marketing tips | Search Engine Optimization Information | SEO

Basically the same I just switch the phrases,

Jill’s Meta tags: search engine optimization, search engine marketing, seo copywriting, optimizing sites, improve search engine rankings

My Meta tags: improve search engine rankings, search engine optimization, optimizing sites, search engine marketing


The above metags of the site I look “up to” uses keyword phrases on their description and take the description and insert them in the keyword tags.
Now I am not going to pretend I know SEO cause I don’t , this is what I am asking…. is it ok to copy their keyword strategy? This is not content or their page copy they are keywords .

Also I am not copying their strategy just for the sake of copying I have done a ton of research on particular niches in the field. I am just trying to mimic their strategy on those landing pages only. not my whole site I am basically going for the long tail here.

Jill....

Also…. Is it possible you could answer a question without adding and offensive remark after your one line answers. This is the second time I posted a question and this is the second time this has happened. Everyone else here seem to be able to answer a post without the little extra remark. I mean this is “your” forum and you can do whatever you want, however I am new to SEO therefore I come here for advice and to ask questions, and yes I am a newbie and some of my questions are probably going to be (like you said on my other post) dumb questions for all you pro’s out there but hey if I want to learn I have to ask right?.... Not everyone has ten years into this field……

Edited by livestatic, 15 December 2006 - 11:16 PM.

[Jill]

s it possible you could answer a question without adding and offensive remark after your one line answers.

What extra offensive remark are you referring to?

[web-junkie]

I wouldn't refer to it as copying. If you are competing for the same keywords as a competitor then by all means use those keywords in your title and description. On the other hand if those keywords are trademarks (as in Jill's case "high rankings"), they really are not keywords at all (could be misconstrued as such by competitors), and you could and probably will get slammed. You just need to research those things first.

By using the keywords, I mean use them in an original way and don't copy. It's just not cool and it won't help you. From what you already said I think you're on the right track.

[Jill]

Best thing to do is consult with an attorney.

[legalguy]

Of course you can.

Are you saying you can just copy someone's whole article that is made up of common words? That's ridiculous.

I did not say you can copy a whole article. But we are talking about small collection of common words. Just like you cannot start a restaurant and protect the saying "Hold the ketchup."


Of course, you can go too far and copy entire pages word for word. That is clearly actionable. If you duplicate the look and feel of a page the owner may have a cause of action against you. The question to answer: is your intent to confuse their existing customers into thinking you and the other vendor are one person? Would a reasonable person make the mistake that you are the other person? Is the look and feel of the other page unique? Have they taken steps to protect the look and feel? Have they filed lawsuits to protect the look and feel?

Outside of the legal aspect, copying and improving is the American way. Truly original thoughts are rare - most supposed new thoughts are extensions and combinations of old thoughts. There are very few mousetraps that have not been copied, deconstructed, dressed up, improved, and remarketed under a different concept. I am not saying it is right to simply copy someone's work. But if copying and improvement did not exist we would be living with 1980's technology and conveniences.

I stand by my opinion - there is nothing wrong with copying keywords and title tags. As long as you do not duplicate a trademarked name or unique slogan, you have done nothing actionable, illegal, or unethical.

Edited by legalguy, 16 December 2006 - 08:32 AM.

[jehochman]

CODE

I wanted to know if it was OK to copy a competitors keyword structure.

I am not a lawyer, but I did go to Columbia Law School. If there were big money at stake, the other party would hire a competent attorney and fry your butt.

Copying is bad marketing strategy. You can't get ahead by following. Have you ever watched a yacht race? A boat that follows another will fall further and further behind because the boat in front spoils the air flow. Search engine rankings essentially work the same way. If you want to get ahead, you have to look for an open space where you don't have a competitor camping on your wind.

<counting error>

Edited by jehochman, 16 December 2006 - 11:26 AM.