79 replies to this topic

[Sarah]

Cool. I am making the designers do it for accessibilty and to make the site for people as opposed to engines, but as always, non spammy use of keywords is always a good thing.

[excell]

I used to have a coder that used both title & alt attributes to describe images...I have no idea why now... but anyways - we used to get into arguments about what was happening for the visitor (not the search engines) for them until we discovered that:

Different Browsers render a choice of either the title or the alt if both were used! We quickly dropped the title attribute for images and used the alt attibute only, which most browser interpret...and made sparing use of the title attribute to provide more info for text links only.

I concur that I have never seen search engine index title attributes BTW...

The original poster should be well satisfied to have such a glorious thread dedicated to their question

[suzstephens]

The original poster should be well satisfied to have such a glorious thread dedicated to their question

It is always a pleasure to have my questions discussed here in such a rational manner. It's especially so after being thoroughly flamed for expressing doubts about the usefulness of title attributes for SEO on the forum where the question was originally raised. I appreciate everyone's comments.

Edited by suzstephens, 07 September 2006 - 12:06 PM.

[Jill]

Sure seems like a crazy topic to get all flamey over...

[qwerty]

Unless some of these people build sites for others, and charge them for the service of getting keywords into title attributes

[Jill]

That's actually the only thing that would explain why they give a !!!

[suzstephens]

Sure seems like a crazy topic to get all flamey over...

Ironically, I was accused of trying to pass myself off as an expert like "Jill Whalen of HighRankings.com". Ever heard of her?

What's especially funny is that on my site, I have an article called, "A Word About SEO" in which I state quite frankly that I provide only limited SEO services with my design services, that I don't have time to stay on top of SEO (which I describe as a constantly moving target), and recommending that agents also hire an SEO or SE marketing expert in addition to hiring me.

Another issue I was flamed over big time was that I said: I didn't have time to experiment with title attributes on my own site and don't care about SE leads because I get more leads than I have time to respond to. They are rarely from SEs or from the other forum, which I was also accused of "farming". I don't want SE leads because I'm expensive and most SE visitors are price-shopping. That was misinterpreted as "WELL, if she doesn't care about her own site, then she must not care about her clients's sites either." You probably can tell, Jill, from my frequent questions here on the forum, that I do care very much about my clients' sites.

And you are undoubtedly smart enough to realize that there are lots of other very effective ways to market a business besides the SEs. Besides my own situation, there's my husband's handmade guitar electronic site: virtually all his leads come from unsolicited favorable references to his products posted by his customers on guitar forums. He's months behind in filling orders, so, like me, he doesn't worry about SE marketing.

Obviously Jill, you couldn't have knowingly picked a better time to send out your newsletter!

[cre8pc]

I've been watching this thread for awhile. It's awesome. I'm linking it to an article I wrote years back on alt and title attributes, which I'm updating. I'm adding a link to this thread (hope that's okay Jill!), since I think the various input will help answer questions people may have.

Or confuse them more...

but still. It's very informative. Btw, the combo of alt and title attributes for linked images is done because browsers render these two attributes differently. I'd say, from my own site testing, that the vast majority of people don't use both attributes for linked images. However, for those who want to, repeating the same description is annoying as heck for screen reader software.

My own rule of thumb is to describe what the image is of, in the alt att. For the title att, describe where the image is linking to. Even better, offer a value proposition or benefit. Ex. "This links to our Products page where you'll also find sales and special offers."

It's otherwise known as the "scent of information" and persuasive design.

[qwerty]

However, for those who want to, repeating the same description is annoying as heck for screen reader software.

I take it that means that screen readers will read both attributes by default. I'd say that's a good reason to refrain from using the title unless you have some information you believe to be valuable to the user.

[suzstephens]

Excellent input, cre8pc. Thanks!

[Jill]

Ironically, I was accused of trying to pass myself off as an expert like "Jill Whalen of HighRankings.com". Ever heard of her?

Suzanne! You bitch!

[cre8pc]

I'd say that's a good reason to refrain from using the title unless you have some information you believe to be valuable to the user.

Exactly. Except in the face of linked images, which I think is tricky for people. I have a feeling many people think the alt attribute appears on mouseover and/or they're satisifed that whatever they put there will satisfy engines and anyone browsing with no images.

And yes, this could technically be enough.

But, the alt attribute for linked images is NOT what appears on mousever in Netscape, Opera or Firefox. The title attribute desc. is. Therefore, if that link goes somewhere exciting or useful, I think there's possible cause for adding it.

I do like title att's for navigation text links, in cases where the word is generic and kind of blah. For text links, such as embedded links, I haven't bothered since sometimes multiple words or a sentence is linked, like anchor text, and it's intended to be descriptive anyway.

But it's worth asking special needs persons who use screen readers how they feel about it. I hate making broad assumptions and causing them frustration.

[torka]

The main thing I use the title attribute for is entering blank ones to force IE to behave like the rest of the world and not pop up the contents of the alt attribute as a tool tip (which just annoys the heck out of me). The blank title attribute overrides the alt attribute and suppresses the IE tool tip pop up.

My second most common use for the title attribute is to enter information I really do want to pop up in a tooltip, such as a warning that the "Link opens in a new window".

--Torka

[projectphp]

I had a client tell me that title attributes for links were important "for accessibility", and I asked why the titles were the same as the link text, so what did they add? Never did get a reply....


OFFTOPIC:

What's especially funny is that on my site, I have an article called, "A Word About SEO" in which I state quite frankly that I provide only limited SEO services with my design services, that I don't have time to stay on top of SEO (which I describe as a constantly moving target), and recommending that agents also hire an SEO or SE marketing expert in addition to hiring me. I have concerns about your approach to this because, as you have probably learnt, many SEOs are a bit on the dodgy side,a nd you not being an active part of this can protentially hurt you, and your business. For an SEO to do their job, they have to change web pages. Not maybe, have to. By letting clients go anywhere, you potentially are hurting yourself, by letting them go to any old hack. Why not outsource instead? By outsourcing, you are in control of the sort of advice users get, and can quality control it by only pertnering with people who prove trustworthy. Taking the service "inhouse", either by outsourcing or strongly recommending people you trust, is the best bet. This also helps with your own branding, because clients remember who helped them solve a problem. If you pointed them in the right direction for SEO, they are left with an even better experience of you, which can only be a positive. My (very offtopic) $0.02.

[suzstephens]

OFFTOPIC:

I have concerns about your approach to this because, as you have probably learnt, many SEOs are a bit on the dodgy side,a nd you not being an active part of this can protentially hurt you, and your business. My (very offtopic) $0.02.

I actually have a very good real estate Internet marketing/SEO specialist, Cherie Young, representing me as my account exec and business associate. Cherie is able to approach real estate agents with the whole package, including all her services plus mine, together or separately. And further down on the same page, I warn them about the SEO crooks.