50 replies to this topic

[Scottie]

I don't believe Jill has been a member of SEMPO for quite some time.

[Jill]

Jill, aren't you a member of SEMPO?

No, I'm not.

But yes, they do have a new certification program. I have no idea if it's any good, but we're actually interviewing a job candidate soon who's taken their certification. So I'll probably find out soon when I see what he knows about SEO!

IMO, the best course at the momentn would be our High Rankings® Seminar!

[Ash Nallawalla]

It is good that old threads don't get closed automatically like they do at some forums. So it is interesting to see how this thread has evolved over four years!

Recently, a company that regularly "ranks" SEO companies (curiously, their advertisers usually seem to get ranked and former advertisers seem to drop out - no I have never advertised there) has offered an "SEO competition" where contestants pay $5000 for the privilege of having their processes examined by this company over 12 months to see if they are doing everything right.

I have watched numerous variants of this discussion and the unstated theme seems to be, "I am a pretty good SEO but I doubt if there are more than x others who are better than me." Not those exact words, but every discussion about SEO certification is met with derision, as though this is an impossible task (unless the writer were invited to define the requirements of such a qualification).

This is not unlike any established profession. For each of them - doctors, engineers, lawyers, plumbers, etc - there was a time when there was no formal certification available and then came some institution purporting to certify them. Who knows, perhaps there will be a university that comes up with a Bachelor of Search Marketing and once the first graduates hit the job market, there will be a scramble to get that qualification. There will be cheaper options such as a Graduate Diploma in Search Marketing, a Certificate in Search Marketing, and so on. If I am not mistaken, some US universities already have courses in search marketing.

Today we have highly respected organisations down to unknown, probably dodgy entities offering certification. Just as you can buy fake driving licences, passports, degree certificates, they are meaningless unless you can deliver a commercial service consistently and keep your customers happy.

Therefore, four years down the track, simply working and surviving honourably in the profession is enough to call yourself an Official SEO.

[Hyperformance]

Nice thoughts... I would simply have to add "success" to that claim. In SEO, not in income or stature.

Even that is somewhat argumentative as to what is that success. But it is still necessary in selling yourself or services to almost anyone. I say this only because I know some who are still working... and yes, they have survived, but successful? I'm not totally sure - and that would depend on what you define it as. We each probably have different definitions of that.

- Scott

[Jill]

Things have definitely changed a lot, even since my last post up there just in April.

Although I'm not currently a member of SEMPO, I'm most likely going to join up again some time very soon as they seem to be doing really good things these days and have their acts together.

Also, I've learned more about the SEMPO Institute, and it looks like a great way for people to learn search marketing and get certified. SEMNE, our local search engine marketing group for New England has a partnership with the SEMPO institute to offer their courses at a discount (17% off) to any SEMNE members. And also our High Rankings' SEO Associate will be taking one or more of their training classes. He'll be writing up a review for the HRA Newsletter as well.

There's lots of other great classes out there today as well, such as the MarketingExperiments elearning courses, plus the tried and true Search Engine College. Our associate is actually going to be taking classes from all of them so we'll have a much better idea what these entail and how much the beginner to intermediate SEO can learn with them. He's already started the ME one and so far has liked it a lot.

We also have MarketMotive's new learning center which is a monthly subscription fee, but which our associate has been raving about to me. Plus, ROI Revolution's Google Analytic's training, which he's also learned tons from.

The SEM/SEO world of learning is changing for the better and there are now lots of options to become an "official SEO."

Keep your eyes on the High Rankings Advisor to keep abreast of the courses, classes, seminars, etc.

[Ash Nallawalla]

and yes, they have survived, but successful? I'm not totally sure - and that would depend on what you define it as. We each probably have different definitions of that.

Yes, quite. Simply "surviving" can apply to an unscrupulous or unsuccessful operator and we hear about them around the traps (in Australia). The market is large enough for them to continue.

However, "surviving honourably" was perhaps an understatement but it was meant to convey a sense of being successful in the eyes of customers and the knowledge that the SEO had done their best for the price. In my experience with nearly 2000 customers at my last employer, there were a handful who were bitterly unhappy and made you almost forget about the other 99% who were satisfied.

Ash

[dharrison]

Hi viewfactory

Someone rang me a couple of weeks ago and asked me if I was a qualified SEO (thought I was a graduate or something). When I said no he looked elsewhere as he thought that there was some qualification. With a bit of luck hes still looking to no avail.

Thats what I love about this industry: You don't need a degree. It does however help to keep active in the SEO communities to hear latest developments and to hear other people's opinions. For example the development over the last few weeks that community rules over content.

I for one are active in 3-4 forums and have an abudance of RSS feeds from web design/SEo gurus that I go through each morning.

HTH

[Randy]

Thats what I love about this industry: You don't need a degree.

Oddly enough, I was invited to a little shindig put on by one of the local Vo Tech schools this past week where the subject of whether a degree was required or not came up. Not just about SEO or even just web stuff, but Computer/IT/Networking in general. The audience/contributors were from local businesses, a couple of community colleges, Vo Tech schools, community colleges and reps from a few 4 year colleges. (My computer guy is on their board and volunteered me to provide some real world perspective. Paybacks are hell! )

Right now in this area of the US corps are pretty much requiring a 4 year degree for Computer Programmers. It doesn't matter to them if someone already has lots of real world experience or even MCSE certification, they still want to see a 4 year degree.

They're not yet requiring a 4 year degree for Web Programming or Web Design, but they're getting closer to it. The general consensus we came up with is that in the next 5-10 years getting a corporate job in those fields is going to require a degree. Right now most of the people doing these Web Coding/Scripting jobs in the corporate world do have some programming background, and they work with folks who have graphics design degrees. An interesting stat brought to light was that over the next 5 years or so roughly 40% of the folks now holding those jobs (read Baby Boomers) are going to reach retirement age. Not enough people to replace these folks have been taking the required types of courses because the US Corps have been outsourcing so much of the work offshore.

These companies are now starting to bring a good portion of that work back in house or back to US sources because they've been burned too many times by this cheaper offshore outsourcing. There's a shift happening, and the companies (here at least) are worried because there is a severe lack of talent in the pipeline. They want the Vo Techs and community colleges to start some courses on the subject, if for no other reason to get high school kids started down a path that they can then follow up on in a 4 year college. They see a real shortage of talent, and the companies are worried about it.

While I had a captive audience, and afterwards because it piqued my interest, I started asking questions about SEO/SEM with regard to degree requirements, seeing as how there is no universally recognized certification process. The companies, in this area at least, are pretty high on using the Web as a Visibility/Marketing tool, and have at least a glimmer of understanding about how important SEO/SEM is to the process. Their opinion at this point is that SEO will follow the route that Web Design/Programming has followed over the past few years.

In other words, within the next 5-10 years they expect they'll be bringing a lot of that up to speed as an in house department, and that one of the requirements is going to be a 4 year degree in Marketing. With the hope that college level Marketing courses start to include more information regarding Web Marketing, Analytics, etc. It's certainly not there yet, but I think the Vo Tech is going to be starting some course work on these subjects. Trying to tie it into their Web Programming/Design courses.

The moral of the story being that while it doesn't require a degree right now to do the stuff we do, it may one day soon for those who haven't already been doing it for years and are looking for a position in the Corporate World. Everything I heard from everybody pretty much agreed with my own personal thoughts on the subject. Including the fact that the corps I have contact with who have been outsourcing stuff are giving serious consideration to bringing a lot of that work back in house, if they can only find the talent to do it. The issue being right now there are not enough (relevant) courses one could take at college, nor are their enough students taking these courses since they've been told by counsellors for the last 5+ years that it's a dead end career choice because of all of the offshore outsourcing.

[mcanerin]

I just did an RFP for a government contract an it's interesting that they didn't ask about my degrees. They asked (this is for a PPC based contract):

1. Are you an Adwords Professional (3 points)
2. Are you a Yahoo Ambassador (2 Points)
3. Are you a Member of SEMPO? (3 points)

...Plus a bunch of other questions, of course. But those were the only 3 third party qualifications asked for, aside from references. Honestly, I think that's the direction things are going. They need *something* to hand their hat on, and looking for long term successes would tend to only let the experienced SEO's get the contracts, and close the doors to new but hard working SEO's.

This is especially an issue when you are looking for someone new to train internally. Most SEO's with 4 successful years in the business independently would not even consider such a position, so that's a poor metric for that type of candidate. There is a difference between running a successful business and going to school - I've done both for a great many years and don't consider one to be an equivalent to the other (in either direction).

I spent 10 years in University. I stopped thinking I was special by year 3 and started getting really cynical by year 6. By year 10 I was just tired and really didn't care. I'll tell you this - your degree doesn't impress me. Deal with it.

I went to law school with people that got straight A's but had never worked a day in their lives. They had no real life experience, and had no social skills or common sense to speak of. But they did very well in school. I'll point out that Bill Gates, Larry and Sergey of Google, and many others in the computer industry didn't even graduate. Graduation isn't important - the work ethic and intelligence it stands for is. Bill, Larry and Sergey all had that, and that's why no one judges them on their degrees (or lack thereof).

Would it matter to you that I was at the top of the class while you judge the quality of this post? How about the bottom? Drop out? None of that matters in the face of: is this post any good or not?

But if I were to hire someone new, I would want *something* to indicate that they are not flakes, and have at least some related skills that were judged by third parties, not themselves. I woudl just keep in mind that it's an indication, not an endorsement.

If you manage to get through university (or college) then at least you've shown you have staying power, are willing to invest into your future and, unlike some high schools, actually could have failed, but didn't. That's all good stuff. I don't care if it was in computer science or ancient languages. If you managed to pick up something useful during that time I'll consider it a benefit.

If you could show that you had the staying power, will to invest in your own future, and smarts in another way than a degree - fine. Until there is an official SEM degree, I take it all under advisement anyway. If you went through the Adwords and Yahoo training, even better. At least it shows you even know what those are, and were willing to take that step.

One thing about using Yahoo, Google and SEMPO for certifications - they are not country specific. Someone in Korea is just as able (language issue aside) to be qualified as someone in the US. I'm tired of systems that force people with PhD's to drive taxis in New York, for example. That's just wrong, and not appropriate for something as global as the internet.

Ian

Edited by mcanerin, 19 November 2007 - 12:47 AM.

[Hyperformance]

You guys (Jill, and ALL your moderators, even those not yet weighing in here) - I have a great deal of respect for all of you... Degreed or not. (I am not BTW) So be it.

But like Ian, Randy and others - it does not impress me - though they once did, and made me wonder what I missed - until I got older (more educated?) I have many degress in street business, street marketing, and major people skills - all of which are not (nor can be learned IMO) at any University course I am aware of... This is my take on my own experience, which has been and continues to be invaluable in the "real" World.

I praise you guys (gals) not just because you have pioneered many a good thing here, but because you so freely share much of it with everyone. I could not do "all that" - mostly because I feel like I am giving it all away... and while I like to share, maybe I am a bit more conservative here and in my business because of all the pains it has taken to get here - also, sometimes, when I try to share my knowledge with say someone younger - there is little appreciation for what it took to be able to give them that advice or direction or whatever - So I bow to you all and would take off this hat if I could , and say Kudos to you all!

You share your degree (of information and education) so freely I sometimes envy you - or at least that ability. Nowadays when I meet anyone, I give them the same respect of any Degreed professional until I see otherwise (or they no longer deserve it)...

We all have Degrees' in life and work, but you my friends just keep on giving, and it is also my pleasure to have found Jill and this forum many years ago - I want every reader to appreciate the Degree you get here! Not just the Degree of information and education, but the Degree of Honesty and Integrity you can gain from hanging with good people. Plus, I must admit... It has been pretty awesome to have an education in something that all these other (Degreed Professionals) could not learn in any school

- Scott
(taking Jills $20 under the proverbial table now) LOL

[dharrison]

The moral of the story being that while it doesn't require a degree right now to do the stuff we do, it may one day soon for those who haven't already been doing it for years and are looking for a position in the Corporate World.

Oh I have no doubt about that at all. Now SEO has stopped reinventing itself every so often, it will probably be sooner than you think.

The issue being right now there are not enough (relevant) courses one could take at college, nor are their enough students taking these courses since they've been told by counsellors for the last 5+ years that it's a dead end career choice because of all of the offshore outsourcing.

On my many travels to university websites, I found there is one in Britain. its called a New Media Degree and I think its up North somewhere. Otherwise its Art School or IT graduates that have put together a 3 page website for their Daddy's company. I'm not sure how I feel about offshore outsourcing taking all the design work. Who knows, in 20 years time they'll be fair-trade websites as well as coffee, chocolate etc.

[chrishirst]

its called a New Media Degree and I think its up North somewhere.

Leeds Uni

Two schoolmates of my son took this course,

One is a postman currently, the other is a desk jockey in the local council housing office

[dharrison]

Leeds Uni

Two schoolmates of my son took this course,

One is a postman currently, the other is a desk jockey in the local council housing office

Seriously? Ok better question: Is it any good?

BTW its nice to know I'm not the only one keeping a close eye on Learn Direct.

[Ash Nallawalla]

Seriously? Ok better question: Is it any good?

BTW its nice to know I'm not the only one keeping a close eye on Learn Direct.

I think a few people are expecting universities to be the experts in SEO. Recently I had an enquiry but as I don't do SEO services anymore other than consulting, I passed it on to some companies I knew could do the job. I learnt later that this chap had collected all quotes and sent them to Swinburne University for evaluation! I'd love to know what their qualifications are in SEO.

[rush4rk]

I think that!
As soon as you got into this forum and began to question yourself about SE.
You become official SEO ^.^
I don't think there are the real thing like BA about it.