50 replies to this topic

[SEO-Richard]

Nice one!


I suppose it depends on definitions. In the corporate world a 'middle sized com.' might be 50,000 people.

In the plumbing world, a company that size would be God. It would probably employ every plumber in a thousand square miles :learn:

I worked for a one-man band; when we went to the trade shops, we were surrounded by one-man bands. A decent sized Plumbing company would have ten people; a very large one 100. It just didn't happen.

Instead , plumbers were usually sub-contracted rather than employees, usually to Joe's Middle-Sized Building company or similar rather than to a specialist plumbing company.

Don't know what I can learn from that! Maybe that specialist trades or professions need to subcontract to survive?

Maybe that Ian was right (God forbid - only joking )

[mcanerin]

Actually, from what you have described, plumbing fits the bill nicely, as well. And perhaps accurately for SEO's, too.

In the plumbing case, the "size" was the job, I imagine, since the average job did not usually require 10 people, only one. It's also a much more mature industry (since at least the ancient greeks).

During the pioneer days, you pretty much did everything on the house yourself. But today? Nope. Not the average person. Too much to know. and the standards are too high. What a pioneer would have accepted is not acceptable for a modern home.

How many people today go to Home Depot or something similar to get the tools necessary to change washers, unplug toilets, and maybe add a sink? Probably lots. I know I do. I might even get a friend to help me.

But did I try to do the plumbing on my house? Nope. That's a job for a pro. A licensed pro. Would I trust some guy who wasn't licensed to do it? Probably not, unless I knew them and their skills from previous dealings. Some people will hire the cheapest they can find (and will get pretty much what they pay for), but most want a pro for a pros job.

So if you are a licensed plumber and do plumbing full time, and have been doing it profitably for some time, then it would be safe to say you are a "big guy" as opposed to someone who buys some tools and hangs out a shingle, or tacks up his inkjet printed biz card on lamp posts. You still see that in small towns, sometimes.

For your industry, that's the middle I was talking about. Not the homeowner, and not the pro. I guess "handyman" would be close. Handymen still exist, but not in the numbers they used to. People usually use contractors now, rather than hoping one guy knows everything.

Being hired as a sub to a general would be your industries equivalent to being hired by the "corporation", in that it's based on your certifications, skills (and cost, of course). Just like IT types. Many IT types today would be very happy with a plumbers salary and job security, which is more of a comment on the IT industry than plumbing...

So to my thinking, a licensed plumber, one man show or not, is the Pro. The handyman is the middle, and the homeowner who watches "This old house" and has a tool kit is the "normal" or non-pro person. Interesting how many people actually watch these shows and enjoy tinkering with their own house, as opposed to calling a pro for every little thing.

So I still think I'm right, but you were not giving yourself and your former associates enough credit A one man (or woman) show can be a big hitter. Look at Jill Would she need certification? No. Although I'm sure shes certifiable ( ) it wouldn't be necessary due to her reputation, and the fact that she doesn't have to apply for a job.

Ian

Edited by mcanerin, 05 December 2003 - 04:05 PM.

[idrive]

I am currently teaching a SEM class through the HTML Writers Guild. It is certainly not an "official" course but there are a few related courses including copywriting, etc.

[MakeMeTop]

There are different forms of SEM/SEO accreditation provided by certain search engines and/or search providers designed to check business practices and (in many cases) technical ability plus conforming to their editorial standards where there are some pretty stringent practical tests you have to pass - in fact nearly all, apart from Google.

Not a lot of people know that - but then I don't think many people are invited to apply for such accreditation or go and ask for it from the SEs that do provide such things. But it does exist!

[anthonyparsons.com]

I think the best thing to help instil the trust of prospective clients in the SEO business, having no formal qualification, is to advertise the relevant codes of conduct that you must work too.

For example, because we have no formal certification, I advertise the small business guide, office of fair trading code of conduct, australian securities and investment commission codes, etc etc. These codes and practices are just some that all Australian businesses must adhere to regardless or you end up with no business name and the government officials in your office before you know what hit you.

I have links directly to those offices for clients to contact them if I where to be unprofessional at any stage. This gives them the knowledge to contact the appropriate authorities, that they probably would not of known about, and second, automatically instils that trust of hiring a professional business.

Honesty is the best policy. It has worked unbelievably for me. The one's that aren't up front, open and honest to give all or any information about their business ethics, are the one's to watch out for.

[anthonyparsons.com]

O'yer, one more thing. I guess this no certification thing is also like copywriting. I don't know about other countries, but Australia has no formal qualification for a copywriter.

Like my wife for example, has degree's in english and office admin, etc etc, so this allows her a damn good knowledge to copywrite. Some people have degree's in marketing and thus sell themselves as copywriters.

Uuummmmm......pretty much well one in the same, huh.

[mcanerin]

degree's in english and office admin, etc etc, so this allows her a damn good knowledge to copywrite. Some people have degree's in marketing and thus sell themselves as copywriters.

That reminds me of one of the most common qualifications used (not that I'm implying your wife is unqualified in any way, it just reminded me )

The (in)famous "Degree in Computing Science" qualification. Having an actual degree in something related is certainly a good start, and of course the HR types will, out of desperation, latch onto anything that will indicate some form of outside, third party acknowledgment that you've learned at least *something* related to your job.

Of course, what you learn getting a CS degree is very often really in depth information on things you will probably never need to know in real life - just like most other degrees.

Stupid story - I was the IP/IT manager of a company some time ago. Did all the websites, SEO, presentations, user support etc, etc, etc. In addition to a large portion of their legal work. I spent 10 years in university for the privilege of knowing what I know and frankly it isn't too much - I learned a LOT more on the job dealing with real life issues that never come up in a classroom.

Anyway, I was transferred to a US division and, since I'm a Canuck, had to apply for a US work visa (fair enough - damn foreigners coming in to steal jobs had better be better qualified than the locals...) Since the job required in depth knowledge of patents, offshore finance, website design and network admin it's not like there was a big lineup of qualified candidates.

But I wasn't allowed in unless I could show that I had a 4 year diploma in computer science. Why? uh, we (NIS) don't know anything about what you do so we want you to have a degree in something. I have a dual undergrad BA/BSc and a degree in Law. Nope, not good enough. Um, I've been doing this job for 8 years? Nope, still not qualified.

To make a long story short, due to a combination of a good lawyer and me making a list of everything I've ever done in or around computers since I was a teen, I am now the proud (?) owner of an official declaration by the US NIS that I have a "4 Year Degree in Computing Science, or equivalent thereof".

Yay. Don't know a damn thing more than I did before the declaration, and way more about my job than anyone with an actual CS - as a matter of fact, they would not be qualified to do it. But without it I wouldn't have been allowed in.

This isn't a rant against NIS - they are doing their job the best they can and it's not unreasonable to check stuff. The point though, is that sometimes what is checked isn't your skills, but your paperwork. And the more "official" it is, the better.

At the moment, the "best" certification to start from is a generic CS degree combined with either real life SEO experience or some other SEO type certification.

Many of the best SEO's DO NOT have the CS degree, so I say "best" with some hesitation. Frankly, having a CS degree almost disqualifies you for copywriting (joke - kind of)

Knowing what I know, I do think it's better to be able to show successful clients, the respect of your peers and current knowledge of the SE situation. But that's hard to measure and many HR depts simply can't/won't do that.

The other option, of course, is to start your own company and then consult - no one asks for the consultant's resume or CV, they just want to know whether they are good at their job

Ian

[SEO-Richard]

Very true, Ian (sorry I didn't reply to your post a month ago in this thread - must have missed it. It was a good analysis of plumbing companies, by the way! And I would advise anyone NOT to take it up as a job )

I did a couple of years as an undergraduate (I basically got kicked out) and it was all bull**** I've talked to a surveyor friend of mine, and a photographer, both of whom did degrees, and both of them said their tutors were completely out of touch with what went on in the real world. I think that might be the root problem.

One of the many things I learnt in my brief stint as a student was that in higher education conformity counts for a lot. Creative thinking and questioning is allowed, but only as long as it's within predetermined limits. And of course, you have to throw in endless references in your written work to lend it all an air of psuedo-credibility.

Not that all degrees are like that. I'm sure quantum physics isn't.

[alansmith]

Please! Pretty pretty....

How did you find out about Google hiring linguistics analystis????

So then SEO becomes: Usability; copywriting; design; focussed marketing; click-tracking... what else have I missed?


Here's another hornet's nest. Within the next five years China's going to be the second economic power in the world (Guardian, today). Personally, I'd put it at the next two or three years.


So then you get to outsourcing, as I've already posted before....global economy and all that.....ooh, it's going to be a rollercoaster ride soon. Diversify, diversify I say.

Thats not so much Chinas getting better but everyone else getting worse.

[Xtropy Web Marketing]

Sorry to hijack this thread, but since I'm a noob, I can't create my own yet.

I'm a college grad, started my own web marketing company, but now I'm looking into grad schools. Are there any accredited schools out there that offer a web marketing program? If so, I'd love to hear about them. I'm not really looking for the online certificate classes as mentioned in previous posts, but more of an MBA with a web marketing emphasis. Any ideas?

P.S. This place rocks...lurker for awhile. Thanks for having me.

[Jill]

Are there any accredited schools out there that offer a web marketing program?

There may be some, but if so, I can't imagine they'd be very good.

[Xtropy Web Marketing]

There may be some, but if so, I can't imagine they'd be very good.

Intriguing. How come?

[Jill]

Because all the good SEOs aren't teaching at schools.

I do know that there are some programs that use info from this forum and my newsletter and stuff, but still, I would be very leery of any course that wasn't taught by someone actually in the biz, but just some "professor."

[Randy]

Welcome Xtropy!

I would have to agree with Jill. There is so much misinformation out there about web marketing that it would border on being impossible for someone who wasn't involved in it day-to-day to sift through everything out there to separate the good from the bad.

That said, as we harp on a lot around here, a good background in Marketing --or as often referred to in the SEM circles Offline or Brick and Mortar Marketing-- translates very, very well to Web efforts. The basics are all the same, just that the mechanisms may be a bit different. Truth be told it's a lot easier to do all sorts of testing, surveys, etc for web sites than it is for a Brick and Mortar situation. A second truth is that it's done faaaaaaaar too little because mose SEMs and Webmasters do not have the Marketing background to fall back on.

For an MBA situation I think you'd be probably be best to persue a Marketing MBA, which will probably include some Web Marketing concepts. Though you may not get a lot out of it specifically for the Web, the marketing information does carry over. Then you can always beef up the Web side of things with one of several courses out there to get a better grasp on the Web side of things. MarketingExperiments.com has recently started adding some courses you can sign up for. As does Grokdotcom.com. Those wouldn't necessarily be for any sort of certification (though at least MEC does offer it in some courses) but to help you tie together the differences between normal marketing and web marketing.

[Michael Martinez]

Jill, aren't you a member of SEMPO? I thought they had a certification program now. Do you have any thoughts on that you'd care to share publicly (not intending to put you on the spot, but I am curious about your reply above)?

We've been conducting in-house SEO classes here at work. I don't feel there is a sufficient industry-wide set of standards to trust any one training program myself.

In my mind, if you can get 5 sites to rank for different expressions (that other people actually use for search), you've earned the right to call yourself an SEO. 5 is an arbitrary number but I think it demonstrates some level of consistency.

Most SEOs are not superstars, but a lot of them get the job done regardless of how much training they've had.