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Comparing "search Engine Optimization" On Majors


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#1 000

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Posted 06 August 2003 - 04:37 PM

Altavista
inktomi
Google
Alltheweb

if you were looking for an ESTABLISHED SEO

would you pick the companies that came up the highest for:


SEARCH ENGINE OPTIMIZATION
SEARCH ENGING RANKING
SEARCH ENGINE PLACEMENT
SEARCH ENGINE POSITIONING

ETC

ON MOST OF MAJOR SEARCH ENGINES ....

OVER A LONG PERIOD OF TIME
:huh:

#2 Jill

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Posted 06 August 2003 - 04:50 PM

Not necessarily. Many of the companies that rank highly for those phrases practice search engine spam.

One would want to thoroughly research whichever company they choose, regardless of where their own site ranks.

Jill

#3 robwatts

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Posted 06 August 2003 - 04:56 PM

No. Not necessarily.

There are hundreds of good SEOs out there who dont necessarily rank well for those terms.

If I were employing a SEO I would, amongst other things, ask for references and evidence of their effectiveness in key competitive terms.

That said, if a company is ranking well for those terms consistantly, across a range of Se's then they are obviously doing something right. :huh:

#4 markymark

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Posted 06 August 2003 - 05:31 PM

Well, if you are monitoring rankings across a few engines over a period of time, I would say that you would get an idea of who the solid SEO companies are and who are just a flash in the pan. It seems a perfectly reasonable way to narrow down your choices when looking for a good SEO, if a bit time consuming.

#5 Mel

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Posted 06 August 2003 - 11:29 PM

Good SEO is much more than just good rankings.

First, there are lots of spammers who get great rankings, but whose approach to SEO may spell trouble.

Secondly, great rankings that do not translate into traffic do you no good whatever, and this method has no way to check that.

Third, this method has no imput on the methods or costs of SEO, which I think should be an important point in any campaign.

IMO if you want to find a good SEO go someplace like the reputable SEO directories who have the knowledge and experience to vet SEOs for you, develop a short list prospects and then talk to each of them about what they can do for you and how much it will cost.

#6 kmtell

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Posted 07 August 2003 - 03:44 PM

As a side note a kind of a funny story: I recieved a couple of email spams from this one "company" claiming to "crack Google's algorithm". When I went to the website, half the time it would not load. When I searched Google for the name of the company, it wasn't listed at all! I just found that hilariously ironic. Of course, I assume these people were just out to spam over clients' sites.

#7 HorseCove

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Posted 07 August 2003 - 05:28 PM

Don't you hate getting that spam mail. Yuck. My mailbox is full of it!

As for the company that sent junk like that out, they probably have a Number One Ranking on Google somewhere, but its probaby some obsure term that no one has ever entered into a search query.

#8 awall19

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Posted 07 August 2003 - 09:12 PM

To achieve those type of rankings many of the SEO companies place a link to their site with the exact word in it - from every page they worked on. This technique lowers the keyword density of the sites they worked on, and loots pagerank from those same sites.

Another thing to consider is that the terms "search engine optimization" and "search engine marketing" are highly competitive. With that being said, most sites SEO professionals work on do not need the level of optimization that a page would need to list well in such a competitive phrase.

If I had to judge a site for authenticity I would judge it for just that. I would not care much what a machine said about the person, I would want to know what others had to say. I would check testimonials, performance of sites they worked on, and I would also communicate a little with them to see how honestly and quickly they responded.

Some SEOs may not have enough time to fix their own site up because they are so busy working on other sites and giving speeches. When I was at a SEMPO meeting I remember hearing Jill say how busy she was. Even Jill, who has this great forum, had her site made by another company.

If you look at the link in the bottom right corner of her pages it will say designed by VBmedia. Many of the type of SEOs who would list at #1 for terms such as SEO would require a link that has "SEO - search engine optimization & search engine marketing" on all the pages. Looking for links I scoured backlinks and really noticed this technique was used heavily by SEO inc, but is it any indication of how hard they work for their clients? NO!

Getting a second opinion is a great idea too, and that is one of the best advantages of forums such as this one.

#9 Jill

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Posted 07 August 2003 - 09:31 PM

Another thing to consider is that the terms "search engine optimization" and "search engine marketing" are highly competitive. With that being said, most sites SEO professionals work on do not need the level of optimization that a page would need to list well in such a competitive phrase.


Yes, this is a very good point. My RankWrite site was in the top-5 for that phrase for a good 1 - 2 years. It's only recently slipped to page2 or page3. But it really doesn't deserve to be in the top-10 any more since it is no longer updated. My high rankings site, on the other hand now has more links than RankWrite, but can't seem to break into the top-20 for very long. It's possible that it has something to do with the cross-linking between RW and HR, but I don't know. One of these days it WILL be in the top 10, however, and it will remain there because of the REAL links it has from other sites. Not those fake links like SEOinc has on all its client's sites.

To achieve those type of rankings many of the SEO companies place a link to their site with the exact word in it - from every page they worked on. This technique lowers the keyword density of the sites they worked on, and loots pagerank from those same sites.


Yes, that's what SEOinc does. But I have to disagree that it lowers the keyword density and loots pagerank. The keyword density thing would be extremely minimal in most cases, and you can't "loot" or "steal" PageRank from a site. That site will continue to have just as much PR as it always has. It's still not good practice, however, imo. But to each his/her own. It does appear to be a viable strategy at the moment and is working wonders for SEOinc.

When I was at a SEMPO meeting I remember hearing Jill say how busy she was.


LOL...yes, more busy than I really want to be! If I remember that meeting correctly, my point there was that I didn't need an organization such as SEMPO to make more money. That seemed to be their basic mission for SEOs. To make more money. I can do that very nicely on my own! Since then, perhaps their mission has changed. Guess we'll see in San Jose. Will you be there Aaron?

Even Jill, who has this great forum, had her site made by another company.


I'm not a designer. Haven't been since '97 and should have quit long before then! This forum is all canned software. Scottie and I were able to customize it, but it doesn't take too much design experience! (I shouldn't say that, as Scottie does do designing, but really it was just a matter of following directions to customize the forum.)

I have a new site coming up any day now too which I just had designed by another design company. Hopefully will be announcing it next week if I can just finish writing the content!


Back on topic...

Getting a second opinion is a great idea too, and that is one of the best advantages of forums such as this one.


Yes, for SEO work, it is always good to get a second opinion. And also a great place to make sure you find a credible company is to browse through the SEO Consultants Directory. Edward thoroughly screens each and every applicant and weeds all the spammers out. He has rejected way more companies than he has accepted, which tells you a lot!

:hmm:

Jill

#10 awall19

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Posted 10 August 2003 - 02:31 PM

Yes, that's what SEOinc does.  But I have to disagree that it lowers the keyword density and loots pagerank. The keyword density thing would be extremely minimal in most cases, and you can't "loot" or "steal" PageRank from a site. That site will continue to have just as much PR as it always has.


As far as affecting keyword density I do not beleive it has a major effect on larger documents. On smaller home pages and low content web pages a few unrelated words in an offgoing link does change the keyword density significantly.

As far as looting pagerank, I still believe that the site will have similar pagerank that it would have anyway with one exception. That page is using some if its voting power to give credit to an external site vice passing it all on to inner pages. While it is important to reference external documents since none of us can be the entire web (less the owner of Namebase). Unrelated links provide little value to the end user.

I am all for giving credit for those who help, but a single page with who we are and what services we use may work if you want to help people in this respect.

Guess we'll see in San Jose.  Will you be there Aaron?


I am rather new to SEO...while having a few clients I still am...rather new to SEO. I want to eventually do just SEO, but I have to quit my job first. I work 60-70+ hours a week in a COMPLETELY unrelated field. I must admit I love the meetings and speeches, but can not afford to go to all that I want to ... at least, not yet.

As far as the second opinion thing... I would not even consider submitting my site to the SEO consultants directory unless it looked extremely professional ... which it will in a few weeks. I do like to read his list of reasons for rejection, but I do not want to be one :D

Active posters in forums like these are typically rather honest in my eyes as they show they understand certain business ideals which are effective, and that they are generous enough to help others with their time. Plus if the posters were posting crap in a forum like this you would be all over them... like the guy who was trying to promote his sitemap software

Keith, didn't you just post a site map creator tool in another thread? What is it you're trying to accomplish here, may I ask you that?

So far, your posts have been misinformed, and often out right wrong. I'm getting a bit annoyed at this, as it appears you are trying to spam our forum.

You're welcome to post questions and answers here, but please be aware that any incorrect advice and self promotion will be promptly corrected or deleted.

Jill



#11 Haystack

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Posted 10 August 2003 - 02:48 PM

"if you were looking for an ESTABLISHED SEO
would you pick the companies that came up the highest for:
SEARCH ENGINE OPTIMIZATION
SEARCH ENGING RANKING
SEARCH ENGINE PLACEMENT
SEARCH ENGINE POSITIONING"

You’re assuming all SEOs would choose target those terms for their business. This isn’t necessarily the case.

#12 schecky

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Posted 10 August 2003 - 04:25 PM

There are reasons firms don't appear that have nothing to do with the SEO techniques used. One being they don't want their site to be in the SERPs to stay under other SEO's radar, and prtection of their methods from other code sniffin SEOs. Some have been banned from Google for accessive remote querying. I wouldn't dismiss a firm for not getting found for these terms, however, I do think it is reasonable to ask why they aren't or what terms they can be found for because this may indicate the quality of service they provide.

#13 TBroadfoot3rd

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Posted 10 August 2003 - 07:38 PM

“who are just a flash in the pan”


Or maybe a flash in the spam?

“IMO if you want to find a good SEO go someplace like the reputable SEO directories who have the knowledge and experience to vet SEOs for you, develop a short list prospects and then talk to each of them about what they can do for you and how much it will cost.”


Many of us know the directories but how do we as a group get the non-savvy person to find these sites so they can make informed decisions by getting quotes from a few different reputable firms and companies. There was a thread where the term "being locally famous or Market Famous" was mentioned but to the outsider how do they know that Danny Sullivan or Jill or Joe the neighbor next door can do the job they require? I agree with Jill about the Consultant Directory so maybe put a link to the site with a text link saying second opinions? I don’t know and I am not trying to be difficult but many of the people who are searching under those topics have no clue of the resources available or have the time to research too deeply in finding the right firm to fit their needs. Just how do the non-savvy about our world find the right services to avoid the SEO/SEM firms that have used spam to put them in the top 20 to 30 of the major search engines?

As always YMMV

#14 Jill

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Posted 10 August 2003 - 07:47 PM

Getting references helps.

J

#15 qwerty

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Posted 10 August 2003 - 07:54 PM

I would hope that, when a business starts looking into SEO services, contacts a company or two and finds out that it's likely to cost a little more than their beer money, they'll decide that it's worth their while to look a bit further into it.

And that's where places like this, and newsletters (especially Jill's because it's targeted to the general public) can be very useful.




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