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Posted 08 May 2006 - 10:48 PM
Posted 08 May 2006 - 10:50 PM
Posted 10 May 2006 - 06:27 PM
I have several questions and suggestions in regards to this thread- as I am a Keyword Discovery fan and have developed a proprietary tool that I use to import KD and WT data in order to sort out the decent PPC terms from the decent Content terms.
I finally gave up waiting for someone to invent a tool to distinguish the two modes of thinking. One of my corporate clients was not using the PPC data to develop a natural content strategy . . . and it cost them dearly.
What I ended up doing is creating an algorithm calle TRI Theme Relevance Index and bouncing that off the keyword from (whatever) database. That would instantly tell me (with the exception of some polysms) the value of a Keyword Discovery or Wordtracker term relative to Pay Per Click or Natural Content or both.
We have also found what Dave is saying to be true, bogus keywords have a way of perpetuating themselves via the search engines like bootlegged alcohol. Especially in adsense empire circles. We are finding ways to sort these things out using TRI and getting better at it.
I would also like to aks Jill: When you see an overture term that is in a strange order, do you immeadiately rule this out for a content TOPIC? What I like to do is look at the "Theme Relevance" without assuming that I will use the phrase in the exact order. Occasionally I discover themes and topics worth drilling into and throwing my ghost writers at. If a "bootlegged" term only has 10-100 pages on the web containing it, and is also in a spammy industry- my software will easily pick it off- if it is much more popular (subtheme) there is usually something going on with this as a topic of interest or a counterintuitive phrase.
Posted 10 May 2006 - 07:23 PM
Risa asked the below question that I feel was not adequately contended with- even though I agree with many responses given. I also enjoyed the article called "The Keyword Tools Trap": Keyword Selection is an Art not a Science.
In KD, the searches # was 54,681, Daily 1248, and an allintitle search was 522. The phrase right after this on my KD list had an allintitle of 17,600, so I really thought I stumbled upon a great phrase, but I guess not.
Is the only way to know that a phrase like this isn't real because it doesn't make sense and therefore I can't really trust the KD data?
I understand what Jill is saying, that there are many more phrases that are less uncertain than these sort of suspicious ones. I still claim that the TOPICS if not the order of words needs to be at least examined. If the term is indeed random query spam . . . there MAY be a reason for the spamming. (Besides just self branding- like the time I found my own name in the overture suggestion tool). The thing is that it IS dumb to spend human man hours on such an analysis when there are so many good keyword that are more easily used to dominate your broad strategic theme. I automate all of those topic investigations and would never spend man hours checking out the value of a subtheme relative to my Parent Theme.
In summary, perhaps the bigger issue is: look at the questionable term and topic relative to its vertical market- and see if it fits into your business model. But most people just get distracted looking for keyword "gold" rather than keeping thir eye on the ball, which is your Parent Theme and its subthemes that match your market driven keyword research, not the "keyword tool" driven keyword research. Thus the Keyword Tools Trap. ( Again, good article Scottie).
<edit>spaces removed, feel free to add a signature</edit>
Edited by projectphp, 10 May 2006 - 07:54 PM.
Posted 10 May 2006 - 07:54 PM
My translation attempt: don't worry about trying to find out too much about billions of keywords, instead use keywords that best fit your site, rather than keywords that the tool says have the highest total.
If my translation is accurate, couldn't agree more You'll get better results writing about what you expect people to search for when looking for your product, that is keywords that are really relevant, than you will if you write about what people do search for that isn't really what you offer.
Posted 10 May 2006 - 09:14 PM
I never use overture because pretty much ALL the phrases are messed up that way. So yeah, I just rule them out.
Posted 10 May 2006 - 09:19 PM
As we have the overture databases as well.... when you do a search using Overture results, we actually display the search terms in their correct order. As with the way we take the Overture data, we are given the terms in their correct order, instead of the alphabetical sorting that Overture applies and displays in their system.
Though all the other filters that they apply we can not remove... such as merging of plurals and like terms etc.. so still not ideal, but atleast a bit better.
Posted 10 May 2006 - 09:37 PM
BTW, was using KD tonight, and the projects were working flawlessly, THANK YOU!
Posted 10 May 2006 - 10:33 PM
Posted 18 May 2006 - 09:47 AM
I think what's happening is that clueless marketers are taking Overture's suggested keyword phrases as gospel. They optimize pages for these funky phrases and then continually check their rankings -- and their rank-checking queries are ending up polluting the keyword databases.
Well, at least it's very easy (for humans at least) to distinquish these funky Overture queries from true queries.
Posted 18 May 2006 - 02:31 PM
I swear, I just don't get why the avg. person doesn't have any common sense!
Posted 19 May 2006 - 12:04 AM
After all, if the tools say "jill whalen monkey love" was searched for 3452 times last week, then it must be true!
People really don't like it when you mess up simple, straightforward numbers with some applied logic and common sense because then they feel insecure about "what to trust".
Many people see the Internet and Search as mystic creatures that require strange rituals for success... why else would people still buy in to "submitting their site to THOUSANDS of search engines" every month for the low, low price of $30 a month? Or creating junk pages they don't want anyone to see? Or linking to scary sites because they agree to link back?
Common sense tells you that you wouldn't stock a bunch of low-priced junk in your store that you really don't want customers to see but that allow you to "have the widest selection in town". Nor would you place a rack of literature in your baby gift store about hair replacement drugs or low cost mortgages... they just can't get that their Internet presence should be treated with the same respect and attention they would give to a brick-and-mortar business.
Posted 19 May 2006 - 02:08 AM
The simplest way to get round this is to test strange looking KD results in Wordtracker, and vice versa.
*supermarket name and type of job changed.
Posted 19 May 2006 - 03:59 AM
You do have to use your noggin when conducting keyword research, but a quick adwords campaign will tell you if they are hit or miss.
Posted 11 August 2006 - 09:41 PM
KeywordDiscovery now has a solution to the skew. A new "premium" database based on 600M search queries has been released this week. This data comes exclusively from a user panel, which means that it is 100% free from all skew caused by automatic bots.
We did not include Meta Crawlers as these are also often checked for rankings, nor did we include any ISP data as this also suffers from skew from people running rank checkers.
The data is not as comprehensive as the full KD database so there is not as much keyword variety, but overall it returns very very clean results.
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