17 replies to this topic

[qwerty]

There's an article in today's New York Times about multiple domains pushing smaller web sites off the SERPs and what can be done about it.

Apparently, the thing to do is talk to the Times. They spoke to Sergey Brin and got a response from him:

Sergei Brinn, co-founder of Google, said in an interview that programmers would review the situation to determine if the system needed to be tweaked. "We'll look at these examples and say, where did our ranking go wrong here and what can we do to make it better?" Mr. Brinn said. "The fundamental principle is that the sites should not artificially game the system."

Not only that, but a search on gift baskets now brings up one of the small sites that complained in the article at number 4.

[Jill]

How come they can't spell?

And why would those particular small gift basket sites be THE MOST RELEVANT for the phrase gift baskets, out of the hundreds of thousands of others? For them to even think they should be is kind of funny!

Jill

[qwerty]

I don't know. Maybe they're subscribers, so they get special treatment.

And I noticed the Brinn thing and suddenly doubted myself. If the Times says his name has two N's, maybe it does...

I Googled google + "page and" just to be on the safe side

[torka]

And why would those particular small gift basket sites be THE MOST RELEVANT for the phrase gift baskets, out of the hundreds of thousands of others?  For them to even think they should be is kind of funny!

I think the point was, these "smaller" basket companies were in the top 10 for their target search terms before Gift Baskets Inc. moved in with their questionable tactics (and I do agree with the complainers... the company may say it's just "good marketing" but from what I've read of what they're doing, it's Just Not Right, IMHO).

And from the way I read the article, I don't think the search terms in dispute were general terms like "gift baskets" (current ranking of sites for the general term notwithstanding). The one smaller company they quoted specifically mentioned that they hadn't sold one "fruit basket" in two months as a result of the dropoff in traffic. And the domains registered to Gift Baskets Inc include 1stfruitbaskets.com, for instance. I would suspect the problem is that Gift Baskets Inc has been targeting all sorts of "niche" phrases in the gift basket industry and knocking these smaller competitors -- who might very well be highly relevant for those specific terms -- out of the running.

The way I read it, it isn't so much that these smaller companies thought in the face of all evidence to the contrary that they should be "more relevant" for general terms like "gift baskets", they apparently were considered more relevant for their niche terms up until fairly recently, and it appears to have been the multiple duplicate-content domains of Gift Baskets Inc that shoved their sites down in the SERPs. And they're pissed off (as they should be, MHO). Ties in with the "are the bad guys winning at Google" discussion we had here, hmm?

Jill, if one of these "smaller" gift basket company had approached you to do SEO for them, would you have laughed them out of your office and told them that they didn't deserve to be in the top 10 because, due to their size, they couldn't possibly be the most relevant site for their chosen key phrases? I suspect not.

And even if one of the small-fry was top 10 for "gift baskets", why not? SOMEBODY'S got to be on that first page, and I'd just as soon see 10 smaller companies than 10 bogus domains all owned by the same big company that's trying to fool me into thinking that they're separate sites. MHO, of course, YMMV.

--Torka

[Jill]

The point I was trying to make was that for highly competitive keywords where there are so many sites selling basically the same thing, you're pretty lucky to get in the top 10 or 20, and you probably shouldn't expect it to last. I'm never quite sure why Google sets some sites in top spots and then never moves them.

But eventually (perhaps now?) sites like these are going to have to start being randomly rotated throughout the top of the SERPs.

Jill, if one of these "smaller" gift basket company had approached you to do SEO for them, would you have laughed them out of your office and told them that they didn't deserve to be in the top 10 because, due to their size, they couldn't possibly be the most relevant site for their chosen key phrases? I suspect not.

Funny you should mention that! Actually, if memory serves, one of those companies mentioned in the article DID, in fact, contact me a long time ago when their site had temporarily fallen from grace. I was amazed that they had been in the top positions for so long and did tell them that I couldn't help them. In fact, I said if you've been in the top of Google for the phrase "gift baskets" for that long, you should probably be teaching me how to do it, not the other way around. I personally wouldn't touch the phrase "gift baskets" with a 10-foot poll, exactly because of its competitiveness.

Jill

[qwerty]

I didn't look at any of the sites. The issue to me isn't who's the most relevant, or whether the company with multiple domains is a bad guy (although I'm going on the assumption they are).

My problem is that people complain to Google all the time about this kind of thing happening, and nothing happens, but the Times asks, and they get a response from Brin (or his cousin, Brinn) implying that when they're alerted to such a situation, they fix it. And in this case, they apparently did fix it.

I would have respected an answer that indicated that Google isn't able to explore every issue that every site owner reports, but that they make an effort to gather information and adjust their algo as best they can. Instead, they've pandered to the media.

[OldWelshGuy]

It has certainly sullied things in my mind, the first thing that came to me was the email i received telling me how my site was not penalised, and that they are unable to alter positions or ranking manually as it was done by their algo (this is obviously unless you sell PR related links for big bucks) allegedly

Now if i thought that way, then others will think that way, and before you know it G could be seen as another corporation of dubious morals.

This close to a possible IPO it is a case of shooting yourself in the foot, or in the shoe anyhow exposing a toe for the rats to gnaw at.

Is it a case of mr Brinnnnnn (or whatever) looking for favourable coverage from the Times during the run up to the IPO?

[Jill]

Maybe it's just a coincidence?

[OldWelshGuy]

Maybe it's just a coincidence?

It might well be, but if it is together with what mr BRN said then it is an unfortunate co-incidence for him.

[qwerty]

It probably looks bad only in our eyes. I imagine the general public would see it as Google responding well to problems. Webmasters with problems will take it to mean the same thing and will report their problems. Webmaster's who have reported problems in the past and got no satisfaction will think it's time to try again.

Probably the only problem this will cause for Google will be an increase of about 2000% in the receipt of spam reports.

[SEOCub]

Googleguy responds to things like this all the time on WMW. It's not email but it is a public forum. You have folks thanking him for fixing things for them etc etc.

[torka]

My problem is that people complain to Google all the time about this kind of thing happening, and nothing happens, but the Times asks, and they get a response from Brin (or his cousin, Brinn) implying that when they're alerted to such a situation, they fix it.

Maybe it was actually his evil twin they talked to...

But hey, if the NY Times called you up and implied you weren't doing your job right, wouldn't you promise to take a look at things right away and see if there was anything you needed to do differently? You know, we're all equal, but some of us are more equal than others... and I guess the NY Times is about as equal as you can get.

Jill, that's pretty funny that you actually had one of these folks approach you! Small world, eh?

--Torka

[OldWelshGuy]

Torka I must be tired as reading your post made my head run like a demented movie projector with mental imagery. First it was twinbrin and the great scene from evil dead (good Ash Bad Ash) then it was Animal Farm and cartoon pigs, finally i had that damn horrid song that we only hear sung over here on American imported shows 'Its a small world after all'

Information overload at 12.30 in the evening.

[torka]

Torka I must be tired as reading your post made my head run like a demented movie projector with mental imagery.

Then my work here is complete!

--Torka

[kctipton]

Those guys are very cutthroat competitors, the gift basket people. They've rocked the boat more than once at dmoz.org about their listings or those of the "other guys." Those sites found near the top of SERPs are particularly motivated to maintain their edge any way they can.