58 replies to this topic

[Baronnn]

They can effect whether the pages get indexed by the engines or not.  But if your pages are getting indexed okay and they look the way you want them to look in the search engines' cache, then you are no worse off than if you don't have frames.

So Baronnn, are your pages indexed or not?  If they are indexed, then your Dutch SEO company is wrong to say you would get higher rankings if you got rid of them.

Our site (700+ pages) is completely indexed in Google when I use site:url. However, when I go to the cache of a product page then I see nothing of the page back in the cache (I never checked this before - only after seeing your post above). Is that bad, or is that a part of having frames?

[powerofeyes]

Why not? There's no effect on rankings. The engines don't know/care if it's a framed page, it's just an html file. They don't lower rankings cuz it was part of a framed site. So this information is wrong, wrong, wrong.

Jill again you misunderstood what I am saying, Ofcourse framed sites are not ideal for large sites, some small businesses can survive with frames but large ecommerce or information sites which relies on search engine traffic cannot be build with frames.

Show me an example of a competitive ranking for a framed site, It is not possible. Your whole internal link structure gets destroyed when you have a framed site.

I am saying this based on my programming experience building sites. They dont lower ranking the problem site wont rank for competitive phrases and I will be pleased to see samples of competitive rankings. Now I deal with very high competitive industries and my experience I very very rarely see a framed site doing well in competitive arena.

[Jill]

however, when I go to the cache of a product page then I see nothing of the page back in the cache (I never checked this before - only after seeing your post above). Is that bad, or is that a part of having frames?

It's part of having frames, and it doesn't effect anything.

but large ecommerce or information sites which relies on search engine traffic cannot be build with frames.

Why not? Because the pages won't get indexed or they get lowered in the rankings?

  Your whole internal link structure gets destroyed when you have a framed site.

But it doesn't have to if designed properly. There are correct ways to design framed sites and incorrect ones. I can't show you an example because I don't know of them, but I'm sure there are plenty out there. I have definitely run across them in the past.

Frames are an indexing problem, not a ranking one. And if you overcome the indexing problem through proper use of navigation on your inner framed pages, they are absolutely, positively no different than non-framed pages. End of story.

I am saying this based on my programming experience building sites. They dont lower ranking the problem site wont rank for competitive phrases and I will be pleased to see samples of competitive rankings. Now I deal with very high competitive industries and my experience I very very rarely see a framed site doing well in competitive arena.

That's because nobody in the competitive industries would be silly enough to use frames as they're not worth the trouble.

You are mixing up cause and effect though. Just because the people in those industries aren't using frames, doesn't mean they couldn't use frames and do just as well.

[powerofeyes]

Why not? Because the pages won't get indexed or they get lowered in the rankings?

Its indexing problem, if it doesn't get properly indexed then of course ranking will be badly hurt.

Frames are an indexing problem, not a ranking one. And if you overcome the indexing problem through proper use of navigation on your inner framed pages, they are absolutely, positively no different than non-framed pages. End of story.

You say proper navigation that is what I mean internal link structure. It is almost impossible to have a proper navigation in framed site. There are times where frames are mandatory, for example insurance sites are basically driven by insurance quote engine providers.

Insurance agents who use these insurance quote engines are forced to use frames because they need to load a third party site into frames while people stay within their URL . this is a valid reason but the site discussed here doesn't have any valid reason why its inside frames. That is why I suggested removing frames are great,

We came across a lot of framed sites which had a valid reason to have frames. Solution for them is to build a static website with good information and load certain pages inside frames where its really needed ( example california insurance quote providers )

There are lots of factors which affect rankings why do we have to make frames an other problem for search engines while its not necessary at all for certain sites.

i never deny framed sites cannot be optimized, my point is why build a framed site when its not necessary, even if its accidentaly build it doesn't hurt to rebuild.

[Jill]

Its indexing problem, if it doesn't get properly indexed then of course ranking will be badly hurt.

Exactly. And if they do get indexed properly, then they have just as much chance as a non-framed page to be ranked. Agree?

You say proper navigation that is what I mean internal link structure. It is almost impossible to have a proper navigation in framed site.

Why? Just put proper navigation on the inner framed pages. It's not even remotely close to impossible let alone almost impossible.

[torka]

If you set each page of the site up as its own framset (use the target="_top" to load each new frameset), you can link from one page to another just as you would a static HTML site. Put a little bit of code on the content frame to automatically load the frameset around it if it isn't there, and you're good to go.

If the visitor doesn't have JavaScript, put a noscript on the content frames to display a version of the site navigation directly to that page. SEs can then index your pages, visitors can bookmark your pages, the majority of your visitors will see the site in frames the way you intended, and the few that can't will still be able to access your content.

If you have multiple bits of content that should logically link from one to another but that don't require being individually indexed (or are in forms so they can't be individually indexed) they could be served through a single frameset (target the content frame for those links) without any loss of link love or functionality.

There's no requirement that a framed site be built within a single frameset.

There's also the venerable self-referential frameset code floating around out there, which I believe still will also do the trick.

The problem with frames is no necessarily the tool. It's the implementation.

All that said, I still won't build framed sites nowadays. There are just so many easier, more modern ways to accomplish the same sorts of effects with much less code, it just doesn't make sense.

--Torka

[webprofessor]

Frames are fine IMO.

I use frames from time to time for special purpose functions and as long as my framed pages are descriptive, the link structure makes sense, and the quality of the pages are good I don't have an issue.

[storyspinner]

Yoy - there's so many sides to this particular topic!

I'm dealing with a huge site, talking 80K plus pages - completely in frames. Now, the framing structure itself, would not be all that bad. And if it was just in frames, then I don't think it would be such a problem, as Jill has pointed out - spiders don't have much problem w/ frames.

However the linking architecture used to drive the site and ensures that the frames are always seen, that's what has killed our ability to be crawled and indexed.

In my opinion - Frames + Javascript = SEO Death

I guess my point in posting is to point out, I'm dealing with a HUGE framed ecommerce site, if it was just frames, it'd be o.k. ... but the death nell is the javascript.


Since the initative here has become "fix this", and the fix is going to be implemented .... my job .... has just taken on a whole great big new dimension *chuckle* and y'all won't likely see me till August at SES!

[Jill]

However the linking architecture used to drive the site and ensures that the frames are always seen, that's what has killed our ability to be crawled and indexed.

Yep, if not done correctly with the frames in mind, that's what will happen, and I think that's what powerofeyes was saying.

But it can be done correctly. Lianna, perhaps you could put the standard navigation into a noscript tag on all the inner framed pages, or something like that?

[storyspinner]

Lianna, perhaps you could put the standard navigation into a noscript tag on all the inner framed pages, or something like that?

Actually, frames are coming off, entirely! So, I'm not even messing w/ any other "bandaids" Trust me, the day the frames are lifted - you are going to see a great big "WAAAHOOO" posted in the Pub!!

Right now though, I've been charged with lots and lots of work in preparation .... thus why its likely you won't see me till August

I've got to lead the "optimization" train! "All Aboard!"

[Jill]

frames are coming off

Okay, but you've been saying that since I've known you, what like 2 years? (or is it just 1?)

[storyspinner]

Just 1!

Its soon... probably about 8 weeks away ... which is definitely approaching fast, and for this company's timeline, pretty darn quick in coming!

[Jill]

Yeah yeah...I'll believe it when I see it!

[Michael Martinez]

Janet21,

The pages are not being indexed properly because there are body tags inside the NOFRAMES area. BODY should be the outer tag. NOFRAMES should be the inner tag.

HEAD
All your meta and head stuff
BODY
All your FRAMES stuff
All your NOFRAMES stuff

Framed content that is properly designed gets indexed all the time. Just search for we're sorry but your browser does not support frames and click on some of the listed sites. You'll find they are using frames (including a CSS demo site) and the NOFRAMES content was indexed just fine.

I still use frames on some of my pages. There are no issues with crawling, conferrence of PageRank, etc., etc.

Not that PageRank matters in the least....

[davidfromraleigh]

Didn't Shakespeare say...

"To frame or Not to Frame"

David