1402 replies to this topic

[mcanerin]

Yeah, I've been telling clients that the proper way to do SEO was to optimise a site for the best rankings possible using organic SEO and then filling in the gaps, if any, with paid placement.

I've always considered pure buying your way to the top as a technique for spammers and people who don't have SEO skills (or recaltrant clients with deep pockets) Apparently Google disagrees. <sigh>

It's kind of like getting on the team because your dad bought the team new equipment, rather than getting there because you know how to play well.

I guess I'll have to brush up on my adwords and overture skills...

Ian

[samt]

Actually I kind of like the idea of informational sites in the natural listings and commercial sites in the paid listings. Or at least, a little bit more of a mixture of informational sites than there have been. Don't get me wrong, from my 'working' point of view, I'd be cursing if I never had to pay for SE exposure and then I suddenly had to take on that expense. But from my personal internet use point of view, I'd love to have an easier time finding good, free information in the search engines. It seems like searches for a little bit of information are unreasonably difficult a lot of the time, so much so that many people I know get too frustrated to ever find what they were looking for. I wouldn't by any means completely exclude commercial sites from the natural listings, I'd just love to see more of a good mix than I have in the past.

[mcanerin]

Some of the best information I've received on various topics have been from commercial sites, but you are right, most people search for information, not purchases.

Wouldn't it be great if there was a buy:web design and info:web design query? Hmmm, maybe I should patent that....

Ian

[gstark]

I think Barry and Peter have led the pack on a successful hunt for the underpinnings of a major philosophical change at Google.

It sure looks like the set theory stuff is close to what Peter described.

I think previous versions (what were the names before Esmeralda?) of the filter set were more keyword count, proximity, and location based.

The set based stuff is more relational - a whole different class of math.

The competitive keyterm filter is really easy for Google to add. They have a built in metric for competitiveness - the going price for a term. It is a market driven self creating factor they can apply to the filtering equation. If it is zero (as it will be most of the time) it has no effect. Also, more terms (plurals for example) will become become more competitive. It is quite elegant in a way.

So BOOM! the days of the tried and true (but tired) rules Jill listed are done.

Sites like my customer's (all ecommerce sites) which have little content other than merchandise, will be driven to a greater dependence on AdWords or will have to create content outside their shops. That may kill off some smaller e-businesses as the words get more expensive, or that may self-correct as the new generation of SE's come out of the gate.

Yahoo/Intomi/Overture and the upcoming MS search tools will split up the market which might force the costs of paid inclusion down.

From where I sit, this whole discussion seems to be not so much about algo chasing as much as "what the hell just happened?".

Now that I have a better idea, I can advise my customers better.

I am really glad I found this forum.

[Jill]

Ok.

It's about passion.

It's about having a Website that you love and treat like your child.

It's about making your site be the best it can be...

This could be applied for our own sites. But a very big question does this apply for commercial SEO practioners.

Of course it does! You forgot to quote the part I wrote about creativity.

If you simply put up an optimized billboard site without thinking creatively, and never persue many other marketing, branding and advertising channels, you'll always be waiting for the next Google Dance to knock you on your ass.

There are three kinds of SEO:

1. SEO for highly competitive phrases. I don't practice this type, but it's the type you'll find many discussing at WMW. Personally, I have no idea how to rank highly for highly competitive phrases, and realy don't want to learn. You do have to study algorithms to win this game, but the payoff can be great while it lasts. I certainly have loads of respect for those that can figure it all out, but it would make me absolutely crazy.

2. Guinea Pig SEO. As we've discussed elsewhere, this is my term for SEO that is done for keywords that nobody searches for. Algorithms mean nothing to guinea pigs, cuz it doesn't matter. They'll rank highly regardless of what happens in the Google Dance. But then again...who really cares?

3. Common Sense SEO This is SEO that doesn't attempt to shoot for one-word keywords or other keyword phrases where there are thousands of other "optimized" pages out there. And it's not guinea pig SEO. It's all about building a real business, or portraying your existing business in the best light.

It's about thinking of new things you can do with your business and your Website, and it's about blanketing the SERPs with tons of highly relevant and specific keyword phrases so that when some go down, others go up. It's not about watching every move Google makes, or trying to second guess them. It's about doing what's right for your Website, just cuz it's right. It's not about studying Google's Webmaster guidelines as if they were the Bible. It's not about worrying if you might have done something to piss off the "Google Gods."

And it's a huge paradigm shift for many people. Especially those used to chasing algorithms and pouring over forum posts. Like everything, it's common sense. What's good for your business in general, is probably going to be good for your Website and for the search engines -- eventually. But every site really needs someone willing to devote a full day, each and every day committed to bettering their site in some way. Even if that's as simple as putting up a new article each week, or whatever. This stuff isn't necessarily up to the SEO either. The business itself needs to devote the manpower to it. This is what separates the wheat from the chaff.

Yeah I know...it's easy to be smug, and all forms of SEO are definitely getting harder and harder. Luckily, there are lots of ways beyond SEO to build a business. If I had to depend on high rankings to eat, I'd be pretty hungry! But then, it's not something anyone should ever depend on to eat.

Jill

[Jill]

From your own news letter Jill. This is what has turned the table down now. Many good SEO practicioners have lost the game just because of an higher keyword density. So do you think you were wrong on that article that was written way back.

Where did I ever say that anyone should use a higher keyword density? NOWHERE!

You can't go wrong by writing copy that uses your keyword phrases in a perfectly natural way on your Website. That often means it needs to be professionally written.

How much you wanna bet that most of the sites that you say are missing (which aren't for highly competitive phrases) didn't use professionally written copy, and/or have copy that doesn't make as much sense to a user as it should. Betcha that the keyword phrases stick out like a sore thumb cuz an SEO stuck them in. And not only that, they stuck them in just at the top of the page and in headlines.

That's certainly not anything I've EVER advocated doing.

Keyword-rich copy that clearly explains what the page is all about, clearly and consistently will always be a key determinant of relevancy to all search engines, just as it is right now.

Jill

[Jill]

Reading through the other posts that I hadn't seen when writing my above two, it occured to me that we're simply seeing another case of you can spend money (ads) or you can spend time creating THE site in your niche that everyone goes to.

Either one will work at the moment.

Jill

[don1]

Sites like my customer's (all ecommerce sites) which have little content other than merchandise, will be driven to a greater dependence on AdWords or will have to create content outside their shops.

There is only one problem with the theories. Google will have shot itself in the foot if they pulled the rug from beneath ecommerce's feet a week before Black Friday. Budgets for marketing were set months ago. Retailers are not looking to change things this close to the holidays. SEO's or internal site development departments won't learn a whole new game in under a week. Such a move by g would discredit them forever making room for the next player.

I'm betting there are some sweaty palms over at google right now trying to figure what went wrong. It's that or they've gotten to big for their own britches. Either way they goofed.

[qwerty]

I agree with Jill that a good, comprehensive site is more likely to perform well than one that's designed for the search engines. But the thing is, I've always found that sites like that worked well on Google, and I'm not sure if they will in the future. Maybe they will, but maybe the market they're in will just make that impossible, at least on Google. We'll have to see.

A lot of people are theorizing that this is part of the strategy leading up to the IPO. That's quite possible I think, but those who are saying that they've got it wrong and this is going to hurt them in the long run may be missing a possibility. Back in the happy-go-lucky dotcom days, an IPO was often part of an exit strategy. Perhaps Page and Brin have done what they wanted to do and are ready to move on to something new. Making their creation friendlier to big businesses may be a good way to drive up its stock price, without any major concern for the long-term effect of such a change.

Just a bit of conjecture. What I actually believe is that they've taken things a little further than they'd planned and are going to have to dial back a bit.

[Sallie]

Hello, I'm new to this, and, I've been follwing this discussion for several days after being bounced around on Google. I've had a web based business for six years and have always tried to play by the rules. But I get very frustrated when they keep changing the rules.

We also run an AdWords campaign to promote our busines and have seen some very interesting activity on that side of the page as well. The cpc has increased considerably in the last week. But, unlike Overure it's hard to determine what the high bid is. I agree with one observation, that Google may be trying to drive commercial sites to paid advertising -- BUT it also occured to me, that Google may also be trying to drive searchers to click on paid ads if they can't find anything relavant in the listings.

This seems especially true after talking to several of our customers in recent months who said they were getting frustrated after clicking on spam site that kept leading them to the same place.

Just a thought. Thank for all the insight.

[powerofeyes]

Hi Jill,
These posting are really excellent. Atleast my quest for knowledge has triggered your attention to post a newsletter like post which will help many people who visit this forum for real effective information.
Ok I agree with you in lot of things. I certainly dont know to which SEO I belong 1,2 or 3. I have achieved couple of rankings for some are very high competitive keywords and some of them still stay intact after both updates by google. I would say i am not just Google watcher I review so many websites in top spot for different keywords to analyze what makes them stay there. It is all just a quest for knowledge. Ok I dont want to start my biography here. OK I have a very big question for you and i thought you will catch that on my posting but you never did that.
Do you compare us with webmasters, dont you think SEO is a completely different field where some people hate it and some like it. Certainly no search engine owner will like us not just because we are deciding the SERPs but just because they cannot control their results.
Your explanation is totally based on the third SEO the common sense SEO. Ok if my quest is to become one of the SEOs in the top category dont you think it is nice to go about with Algos.
Mostly your answers seem to be for people who run their own websites, Your answer targetting 1000s of keywords cannot be applied to a client site if we take that order on the No of keyword basis. what is your answer for commercial SEOs. A client comes to me and gives me couple of highly competitive keywords tell me to optimize them and I say they are too common and difficult to achieve and guide them into a keyword research. But as many clients I have seen they just want some good popular key terms, not any geotargetted ones or less common ones. So what will by your answer to them. This question is not for established SEOs like you, but one like me who is just in their early part of SEO. You people can deny any orders just because you set the rules there. Right now many of us are not as established like you so and we dont want to loose a good client how shall we go about this,
Regarding writing professional copies for websites, there is a difference between 700$ and 7000$. We charge 700 that includes link building everything. We demand for more money for SEO copywriting if client refuses we make them write that copy, I agree we sneak in the keywords(not necessarily on the top part of the page) but that doesnt make a lot of difference to search engines because we take care the grammer is not spoilt in that content,
Say suppose G send's a clear message to everyone dont optimize your site(that is what they are doing right now) if you do we will ban your site. Will you leave this business just that they dont like it or youll find a way to rank opposing their rules,This is a pure business based question.
VIJAY.

[Peter]

Common sense SEO is the only way to go for any company that is in it for the long term.

I would think that Google is also in it for the long run and is applying common sense as well.

We all, (me included) should look at this big change in the SERPs with common sense and leave the conspiracy theories out of it.

I´m trying to look at the SERPs from a pure searcher point of view, and practically every example of a bad SERP looks like a perfectly fine SERP for a searcher. In the end,.. that´s what matters.

Show me a SERP that really does not make sense to a searcher,.. (and open all the pages in the top10 before you decide that the SERP is bad.)

Peter

[Jill]

Your explanation is totally based on the third SEO the common sense SEO. Ok if my quest is to become one of the SEOs in the top category dont you think it is nice to go about with Algos.

Sure, but just note that there will never be any stability to what you do, if you go that route. You will be on a rollercoaster ride for the most part, and you will constantly be starting over from scratch. You may even have to sacrafice a great site, just to obtain rankings. And that may actually NOT be in the best interest of your client, even though they may think it is.

A client comes to me and gives me couple of highly competitive keywords tell me to optimize them and I say they are too common and difficult to achieve and guide them into a keyword research. But as many clients I have seen they just want some good popular key terms, not any geotargetted ones or less common ones. So what will by your answer to them. This question is not for established SEOs like you, but one like me who is just in their early part of SEO. You people can deny any orders just because you set the rules there. Right now many of us are not as established like you so and we dont want to loose a good client how shall we go about this,

If you can actually deliver them results for those competitive phrases, then more power to you! But can you? Can you do it without resorting to spam? And can you do it in a way that doesn't actually hurt the Website? Again, if you can, then you would be a rare breed of SEO.

It wouldn't matter if I was a well-established SEO or not, I know my limits. As far as I'm concerned, one-word keywords are a crapshoot. When there a million other pages that focus on that word, there's nothing in the world I can do to my page to make it the exact one that should rank highly. Sure, I might get lucky, or I might hit on the algorithm of the month, but the chances of remaining highly ranked for long, isn't very good. If you've been lucky in the past and were able to do that, then count your blessings!

My point really is that if you choose to go that route -- chasing algorithms -- just make sure you have the stomach for the ups and downs of the rollercoaster ride. And make sure you have an alternate way of making money for those down times.

Me, I don't have the stomach for it.



Jill

[powerofeyes]

Thanks Jill,
That helps a lot. You always have the right answers to the right people ,
Now I think we can go on with this thread. Now all the datacentres results look identical seems www-va.google.com data center data has been updated with other data centers data.
There seem to be no changes in the SERPs for many keywords. But did anyone notice now PR1 and PR0 sites are ranking well above PR5 and PR6 sites for couple of keywords.
This is very interesting seems the weightage on the PR has become very less. Seems we dont have to do a lot of link building anymore.
I am not only seeing sites PR1 rank very high but they rank for really competitive terms, very interesting results,
VIJAY.

[SEO-Richard]

! You guys have been posting faster than I can read!

Reminds of of Mike Yarwood (comic):
Roller (Rolls Royce) pulls up in gas station, stops at pump, Mike pumps the petrol in.

"Excuse me Sir, would you mind turning your engine off, only I can't keep up"


Whatever.

3 types of SEOs, 2 types of company - those that want the quick fix (keywords), will pay bucks, and those that put their marketing effort into the website and decide to make it an extension of their company.

I haven't got the brains for figuring out endless algos for the first (mucho admiration to all the geniuses (genii?) here who can) so better try and find the second.