1402 replies to this topic

[powerofeyes]

Hello,
Ok now we are into the game,
Your(peter) find contradicts many theories that is involved in keyword spamming. Ok If I agree lean pass site is relevant to "custom web designer". But how, does google finds this out, I dont want to give any vague answers like initially google seems to work saying "custom web" or "web designer"that you are saying which doesnt have any strong foundation back ground to support your theory, I agree google works on complex algo's. BUT PURE COMMON SENSE CAN OVER COME THAT. INFACT SEO is all about common sense and doesnt need more understanding of complex algo's what search engines target.
ill put my theory where I can give strong evidences from different people's experiences.
First let me list my finds to rank for a key term( my own finds doesnt need to be implemented by anyone),

1. You shouldn't repeat the keyterm more than 2 or 3 times on a given page especially the HomePage if you are targeting the Homepage.(this includes titles, header tags and body content). Best practice seems to be adding once in title, once in a "<h3> tag, and last one on a inbound link to some inner page(In the anchor text pointing to that page. )
' For example if you are going targetting a phrase "california real estate" best practice seems to create one page something talking about "california" and "real estate" all over the place(again no phrases in this page) and adding hyperlink to that page with the anchor text california real estate" this seems to help the page which ranking since it gets some support from the page it is linking to. This is the one which seem to explain how directories are ranking well
2. Your anchor text inbound links from other sites shouldn't involve the key term you are optimizing. For example if you are optimizing for "california web design" and if you have anchor text saying "california web design" for most of your imbound links again you are inviting a Penalty. How will google determine this as spam very big QUESTION because even your competitor can put lots of links with this anchor text and get your site penalized, I give them the answer behalf of them, what they do they pick the anchor text come to the page you are targeting from the anchor text inbound link, read the content of that, if they find out that, that keyterm is optimized(repeated couple of times on the site) they penalize your site for that keyterm. Similiarly ill tell you how my sprinkling text theory will work for in the future to target a key term. My recommandation split the keyterm. For example if you want to target "california real estate". You can make your inbound links saying "california" in couple of sites and "web design" in couple of sites. This supports my sprinkling text theory on anchor text what it holds for future SEOs if this algo stands, anchor text is an off page factor now how can we optimize the inpage factor using my sprinkling text theory, Again if you want to target the keyterm "california real estate" we should have "california" in couple of places and "real estate" in couple of places. Supporting this will be my previous posts,
Ok answering "aaron wall's" speculation if google sticks to this theory google will be spammed by cloaking scripts, Google answers this question with their own technology PageRank you must have seen top ranking sites have good PR which low ranking sites or scripts doesnt possess. And it seems google is not worried of results that are ranked after top 15. So they wont be much worried if the results on the 3rd page is dominated by a sprinkled text cloaking script as far as the top results are relevant.

3. If we are targetting our Homepage for a keyterm I strongly say we have to repeat keyterms somewhere deep inside(not on the home page). Note: this is for aggressive SEOs(I am not talking about keyword spamming here but repeating the keyterm somewhere deep inside the site will help Google to determine the relevancy of the site). This complete algo seems to be a theme based one where a site is not determined by just title or anchor text, or key phrase but a whole site theme is involved this can be overcome by sprinkling text theory.

Finally I would like to say lots of more thinks are involved which ill post here when I find them with evidences. One thing for sure there is a new trend in SEO will emerge(IF THIS ALGO UPDATE STAYS) where targetting phrases wont rank but sprinkling the same text all over the place, (including breaking down them in anchor text) with different entities will work.
thanks,
VIJAY.

[Peter]

Querty,

I would think it is a bit more sofisticated than that,..

What could be the case is that the index it self determines where the "cut off" point is. Depending on how many sites show up that seem to fit (based on other algorithms) the search term very good.

So for each search the "cut off" would be different. Factors that could be important are:

* The number of sites that seem to address the generic phrase
* The number of sites that seem to address the exact phrase
* The number of sites that seem to address a more exact phrase
* The number of sites that are related
* etc.

And all these factors can also make big mistakes,.. Of course I don't know what they are doing, but perhaps they are just trying to tweak the different factors so that the over all results (I mean the percentage of improved results) is at a certain minimim.

Peter

[powerofeyes]

Hello qwerty,

I just don't understand why this concept of sets and subsets should end at three-word queries.

Very good question. This is where adding the keyterm atleast 2 times or 3 times will win the game. If google finds keyterms once or twice in a page especially on the title or header if relates that page with that keyterm but how to win the competation. Again sprinkling the text targetting the keyterm as seperating all over the page will win the game supported by PageRank which is a minor factor.
Sprinkling text can be done by say "custom", "web", " designer" or "custom". "web designer" or "custom web" "designer" any combination will work with the current algo. Again My own theory,
VIJAY.

[Peter]

VIJAY,

I think you are very focussed on the symptoms,.. and not on the cause. You are trying to cure the symptoms, but you refuse to take into account the cause.

1. You shouldn't repeat the keyterm more than 2 or 3 times on a given page

If this is true, then informative pages are history, since they obviously would repeat keyword phrases much more often.

Your anchor text inbound links from other sites shouldn't involve the key term you are optimizing

If this is true, then lets get to work and make lots of "wrong" links to our competitors.

If we are targetting our Homepage for a keyterm I strongly say we have to repeat keyterms somewhere deep inside

I´m sure Google looks at this, but I think it did this already before this update. The theme of the web site is a factor, but every normal web site has a theme which will come back in most pages, so this probably is not a determining factor.

Finally I would like to say lots of more thinks are involved which ill post here when I find them with evidences. One thing for sure there is a new trend in SEO will emerge(IF THIS ALGO UPDATE STAYS) where targetting phrases wont rank but sprinkling the same text all over the place,

Sprinkling words has what effect? It makes the page look less specific,.. not targeting any specific term. So now you will rank good on that one less targeted phrase, but loose position for all the more targeted phrases.

Again,.. I think you are focussing too much on the symptoms and not on the cause. Lets just wait and see how things develop before going into detailed solutions.

Peter

[powerofeyes]

Hello Peter,

If this is true, then lets get to work and make lots of "wrong" links to our competitors.

I did give an explanation to this in my previous post.

If this is true, then informative pages are history, since they obviously would repeat keyword phrases much more often.

Yep I agree today's standing all information pages seems to be disappeared from SERPs. I am talking about specific pages NOT WHOLE SITE.

Sprinkling words has what effect? It makes the page look less specific,.. not targeting any specific term. So now you will rank good on that one less targeted phrase, but loose position for all the more targeted phrases.

Seems that is what google says now make the pages less specific and we will judge what keyterms you are eligible not you SEOs or webmaster,

You are trying to cure the symptoms, but you refuse to take into account the cause.

I did explain the cause. I agree we got to wait for more days, but nothing wrong in understanding the changes,
VIJAY.

[MakeMeTop]

Leanne - You seem to be doing better than #17 in the latest test.

Try this.

All this does is mess up the matching against whatever DB they are using to determine "hot" words and the filter does not kick in!

Peter, I'm sure that Google are searching for ways to make their SE more relevant and increase revenues. However, I get a feeling that as it is primarily keen terms that get zapped on which there are invariably heavy AdWords bidding, that their quest for the perfect algo has the added benefit of boosting their revenue. As far as incoming links are concerned, how would you create links to competitor sites - all with the main keyword they have optimised for? What if you have to have 5 or more SEOd strikes before you are out and incoming links is only 1 of them. What if Google decides to give a penalty to site networks giving links to other sites. It has happened before!

Vijay, how to find the cure? First find the words that are zapped. Then you might be able to see what to do to get around it.

There is no generic fix that I can see to get around this algo change. The non-optimisation you need coupled with making an authority site for the killer terms will then not bring you up for the thousands of related terms and vice-versa!

[Leann_Pass]

Wow! MakeMeTop now this is interesting .... trying your search for
web designer I show #10 and for
website designer is #3
.....hummmmmmmm.

[Peter]

I tried this web designer -stupidsites and got practically the same results as with web designer.

Peter, I'm sure that Google are searching for ways to make their SE more relevant and increase revenues. However, I get a feeling that as it is primarily keen terms that get zapped on which there are invariably heavy AdWords bidding, that their quest for the perfect algo  has the added benefit of boosting their revenue.

Wouldn't that be logical? One goes with the other I think. More popular terms are more often optimized for,.. hence,. we notice it more. These same terms are also more popular in adwords,.. that is logical.

In adwords you can say: "I want to show up for these specific terms only." and you will.

In the normal results you say: "I would like to show up for these terms." and you may, but you may also show up for many other terms.

Are most sites optimizing for the same terms they ask in adwords?

I don't believe that Google is doing all this just to make a few extra dollars. They first do it to improve the quality of their product(s) and that one of the effects could be they make more money,.. of course they thought of that too. Seems logical even,.. better product,. more money.

I hope they can get the problems fixed quickly so we can all go back to business as usual,..

Peter

[Peter]

So what are you saying Leann?

You are actually getting more traffic now than before?



Peter

[MakeMeTop]

It is interesting. Try it against other hot AdWords terms!

I reckon we have only 72 hours or less until Google block this loophole - and eye into what they are doing.

>got practically the same results...

Filtered results give 9 authority sites which are resources for web designers and 1 commercial site that does not have the phrase on their page.

Non filtered (-stupidsites) results give 6 authority sites which are resources and 4 commercial sites.

That looks like a mighty difference to me - a 50% increase in authority sites and a 75% cull of commercial sites.

I'm not saying the results are irrelevant, I am saying that this is indicative of what is taking place in tens of thousands of industries.

As far as I (and many others) are concerned, this is as plain as a hand in front of your face. However, if you choose to believe my analysis of over 200 sites in 120 different markets worldwide - which all show the same thing - is incorrect, I (of course) respect your opinion. I hope you are right, however, I fear you are not!

Edited by MakeMeTop, 22 November 2003 - 10:48 AM.

[powerofeyes]

Hello MakeMeTop,

The non-optimisation you need coupled with making an authority site for the killer terms will then not bring you up for the thousands of related terms and vice-versa!

Yes you are right but seems that is the message from google. Dont optimize your sites for targetted keywords. We will judge who will rank where,
VIJAY.

[Leann_Pass]

You are actually getting more traffic now than before?

Nope Peter, but as soon as I can get everyone convinced to search with
-stupidsites or -goodsites........I am in a great shape for my best kw's LOL

Seriously, the results are interesting to look at.

[Leann_Pass]

That looks like a mighty difference to me - a 50% increase in authority sites and a 75% cull of commercial sites.

MakeMeTop,
What are your thoughts as to HOW they are determing which sites to cull?

[Jill]

Leann, I believe Barry (MMT) is saying that phrases that get lots of bids on AdWords, are more likely to get hit with the competitive phrase filter thingee.

And for everyone, as soon as you optimize for today's algorithm, it will change and you'll be lost once again. IMO, the worst thing anyone can do is chase algorithms. I've been saying this for many years, and it's always rung true. At least if you don't want to get hit by Google dances every month it does.

Jill

[Leann_Pass]

Leann, I believe Barry (MMT) is saying that phrases that get lots of bids on AdWords, are more likely to get hit with the competitive phrase filter thingee.

Yes, I understand that and I definitely see it happening (unfortunately). I am just curious as to how they deciding on which sites will get culled when they apply that filter.



No way I'm gonna adjust for this....I think you are right in that as soon as anyone does it will change again. I just wish it would settle out.