45 replies to this topic

[Jill]

Oh yeah.. I did. That's the bummer. I'm walking away with 10 unpaid hours of research. With two small children, rent, etc... that's not easy. And it was really good research also!

Ok, but what did the client think you were going to do with the research?

Maybe you should just start doing PPC for these clients that won't change their site?

[Kal]

It's very difficult to convince big brands that they do NOT need to worry about effecting the user experience. Becuase without SEO, you won't have any users to get the experience.

Amen!

[ewc21]

Why focus too much on a volatile parameter such as keyword ranking if you can justify an increase in traffic using the targeted keywords to get to your client web pages via search engines?

We also have to deal with various clients whose understanding on SEO differ to some extent. With that happening from one client to another, it's important to give them an overview of how things work in case it is necessary. And even if not, ensure that you have a common understanding on the goals and how or when to achieve them. That is what appears on contracts.

Emphasize more on the bottom line, that is to generate sales or leads out of the SEO effort done on their pages more than just keyword rankings.

[Randy]

Me, I will drink a beer and think about this whole SEO thing a little more. I LOVE DOING IT, and I'm good at it. I just need to pay my bills!!

Just to throw it out there even though this is totally off topic...

Since you're good at SEO have you ever seriously considered spending a bit of time creating your own e-comm sites instead of only working for others?

Sounds silly and simplistic doesn't it? But that's exactly what I did.

Not only do I not have to deal with SEO clients anymore, some of whom we all know can be over-demanding, but I actually make a heck of a lot more money than I ever could being a one-man SEO shop. And the profits from my work are ongoing. Meaning I do the real work once (getting sites up, SEO'd and going) but get paid for the work each and every month thereafter.

Funny how that works, and again it sounds so simple that I can't believe other SEO's can't seem to see it. If you can manage to put up a site in a new niche each 4-6 weeks --and automate the sales/delivery process as much as possible-- the sites practically run themselves. So even you only end up with a few sites that are each making a few thousand in profit per month, it's still is a pretty decent living.

[dmcconkey]

Out of curiosity, Randy, how long did that take you to turn a profit? I've been tossing that idea around, but every hour I spend for me is an hour I can't bill a client. Back when I could only find 10 hours of work a week, that would have been fine. Right now, though, I'm already sacrificing most weekends to meet client deadlines.

Adding my on-topic thoughts to the thread, I use the initial pre-sales interview as much to educate myself about the client as to educate the client about me. I recently had a pre-sales meeting with a small division of a very large company. The parent is revamping all sites, but the roll-out won't be until June 2006. They wanted me to come in and do SEO on their site for more immediate results.

I only ever sell SEO as a value-added service (I'm actually a programmer for this company) so it didn't hurt terribly to turn the project down. I still have the client for other jobs.

You have to spot unreasonable expectations up-front. My pre-sales and contracts always center more on what I won't do than what I will do for the client.

-Dan

[chrisbiber]

Maybe you should just start doing PPC for these clients that won't change their site?

Amen to that... Especially given the long interval between SEO effort and meaningful results, I always recommend PPC as a supplemental tactic that delivers immediate results. Of course, PPC is also useful for insight into the ongoing SEO work (which terms convert etc.)

Cheers,
Chris

[Jill]

Since you're good at SEO have you ever seriously considered spending a bit of time creating your own e-comm sites instead of only working for others?

Good point, Randy!

Along those lines, there are tons of SEO companies out there who would love to hire an experienced SEO and you would only have to do the work, not necessarily deal with the clients. (Of course, you'd have bosses to answer to!)

[mal4mac]

Since you're good at SEO have you ever seriously considered spending a bit of time creating your own e-comm sites instead of only working for others?

Sounds silly and simplistic doesn't it? But that's exactly what I did.

Not only do I not have to deal with SEO clients anymore, some of whom we all know can be over-demanding, but I actually make a heck of a lot more money than I ever could being a one-man SEO shop. And the profits from my work are ongoing. Meaning I do the real work once (getting sites up, SEO'd and going) but get paid for the work each and every month thereafter.

This is probably the best advice you will ever see anywhere.

I'm already doing what Randy is recommending, although I've only got the one site earning a few thousand a month (so far).

Why not take all that good research you have done, that your clients have rejected, and create your own site full of informational content relating to the research. Throw in some affiliate links and, most importantly, some AdSense ads and watch the money roll in. If you don't believe me or Randy, then experiment. You only need to put up a few pages to see a few dollars rolling in each day; that should motivate you to do more.

When you ditch your sad clients stress, in words of one syllable several times, that they should "ad-vert-ise with Google Ad-words". When their ads start appearing on your site you can .

[Randy]

Out of curiosity, Randy, how long did that take you to turn a profit?

Me? Less than a month since I didn't consider my time to be an expense. I started this while I was still doing SEO for others, so it didn't really take anything out of that side of the profit equation. I had quit taking on new SEO work by midway through the 3rd month.

Note that it was a different world then too, since Google didn't have their aging delay in effect at the time. Today I would probably try to build in a 6-8 month Break Even into the financial equation, depending upon a lot of factors. Like what market you're going into, how competitive it is, do you really have something unique to market, do you have inventory costs, etc.

But I'd still do it the same way. Set aside one day (it was Sunday for me) where I wouldn't work on anything other than my own sites. Given the skills and enough drive, it still shouldn't take more than a month or so to have the first site out there. Then start on the second. Then the third.

You get the picture. Diversification is a great way to limit risk, especially if you can work out something where your only investment is Time and Knowledge.

[Jill]

In case anyone was wondering, Randy is every SEO's hero!

[dmcconkey]

It's certainly inspiring. It's a bit of the "cart before the horse" for me, though. I've got a few market niches in mind, but nothing beyond speculation...

Further, I have a wife. It took five years to convince her that I could give up my day job. I could probably convince her of this, but it'd be a battle.

Still. Thanks for the inspiration.

-Dan

[Randy]

Start slow Dan. Nothing that will jeopardize your current income level.

A long term approach is always best. Because does it really matter if it takes 6 months or a year until your own site's income overtakes your real work income as long as you still have that real work income coming in the door?

Jill: Nope. That's far from the truth. Truth is, I really don't care if they get it or think I'm nuts. In fact, it's better for me if really good SEO's don't start doing their own thing because it means less real competition.

Why? Because you always work harder and smarter when it's your own fanny on the line.

[Jill]

No, but you really are an inspiration and hero, Randy. I know you rarely talk about what you're doing with your own stuff and how great it's worked for you. But for those of us who know a little about it, it is truly inspiring.

Personally, I am not interested in having my own sites because I think it would be too much work having to do the fullfillment part. I would possibly entertain stuff that could be cone completely digitally through downloads. But I actually like interfacing with client's and stuff...surprisingly!

[dmcconkey]

Good point, Jill.

Ever since I quit my W-2 job (about a year ago), I've adopted my clients as my "water cooler gang". I guess I just have an inner need to shoot the breeze a little. I don't see ever giving up the clients completely, but a (somewhat) self-sufficient revenue generator on the side could be a nice addition to my livelyhood.

-Dan

[bkernst]

What I tend to do with some clients, is comparing search engines (none specifically) as customers that are picky about what they want. giving them the right information will get them back to eventuelly make enquiries and use the services/products offered by the website. Hopefully in the long run they tell others about the site.

The above is what clients do understand. I also make it clear to them, that content on some or most pages of their site is lacking content (after looking at the pages), and would not be useful to someone browsing the site looking for product information.

In general after those recommendations, I find that when a website becomes more interesting by adding relevent content, the traffic starts rising. Sooner or later the clietns start to notice and are happy about that.

There are some which don't want any changes at all but want to be on the number one spot. If they can't even agree to my basic recommendations, then I can't help them on that.