61 replies to this topic

[energybalance]

so it would appear that Yahoo got it right, and Google got it wrong, on these two very different searches. A year ago, the reverse was the case.

Ive been finding that for years... yahoo is spot on for our clients.. possibly cause i havent gone onto the link farm bandwagon at all.

trying to convince clients to think about using yahoo is virtually impossible as google has now become synomous with the search... we now hear... im gonna googe that term on the net, not.. im gonna search that term.

it would take something dramatic to remove the popularity of google so i thnk we are going to have to live with the nonsense google delivers sometimes.. problem is that it affects peoples livelihood.

[Jill]

problem is that it affects peoples livelihood.

Those people need a new livelihood then.

[energybalance]

Those people need a new livelihood then.

Thats not very compassionate Jill.

[Scottie]

Business isn't about compassion. If you are basing your livelihood on getting free traffic that you don't control, you are setting yourself up for a big shock.

Can you imagine starting a store and expecting the newspaper to write an article about your business every week for free so that you could get customers without having to pay for marketing? Maybe the yellow pages should list your business ad for free as well.

Free search listings should be a bonus, not the basis of all your earnings.

Expecting free listings to pay the bills is like playing the stock market and expecting your stocks to always increase, simply because they have in the past and you have come to rely on those stocks for income.

[Jill]

Thats not very compassionate Jill.

Yeah, so?

My job here isn't to be compassionate. It's to be realistic.

[tonts]

Scottie.....

Generally I agree with you. However I think you are assuming that everyone has the economic means to promote within other venues. I have found there are many stay at home Moms and Dads that are not fortunate enough economically to have real jobs. There others that I know of that are are mentally handicapped that try there economic best. I admire those that tackle some means of providing for their children when otherwise they could be taking advantage of government assistance programs. In those cases these citizens have no choice but to rely on free search. They are not necessarily blaming the algo system but it is very much a stressful situation for them when rankings are lost and are frantically seeking optimization solutions to sustain existence.

Therefore....a little compassion is not too much to ask. For others that have the financial means and ability to have other livlihood alternatives.....they deserve a bit of chastising. But you can't blanket everyone with the same cloth.

[Randy]

Welcome tonts !

All true. People end up in financial straights, hopefully temporary ones.

That said it's always much better to receive the facts, no matter how cold and hard they may be, than it is to steer someone down a path that ultimately leads to failure.

Definitely work within our budget. Just keep in mind that when your budget has more flexibility to incorporate more avenues for revenue to reach you.

[dbmasters]

If you have no choice but to rely on free search, then you also have no choice but to suffer the ups and downs of it, regardless of who you are or what your situation is...You'll do good when it works for you and you'll suffer the loss when it doesn't...welcome to capitalism.

I wasn't aware bleeding heart liberalism entered the internet business arena now

[DanThies]

Compassion is fine. I feel sorry for people who build homes on volcanoes, fault lines, flood zones, tiny islands in the Caribbean, etc. when their homes (predictably) get destroyed. I really do. My in-laws were all put out of their homes by Katrina, so I know it's no fun.

these citizens have no choice but to rely on free search

That's a very sad, give-up kind of mentality. Relying on free traffic from search engines as your sole source of income is just plain nuts. If a website can't turn a profit with paid advertising, it might be a good idea to fix that problem before worrying about SEO.

Doing that just got a lot easier, thanks to Google's free Urchin analytics program. Now people who want to bootstrap a site don't have to pay through the nose for an analytics tool that can help with conversion rate improvements.

[Scottie]

Welcome tonts!

Wow, they have no choice but to rely on free search? Since when did having a website become the only choice for parents to earn income?

I'm a single mom of 3 small children... where do I sign up to get special treatment in the SERPs?

The problem is exactly that attitude- that people who are socially challenged in some way are entitled to special treatment. It's one of the reasons I can never get into the work-at-home-mom boards. Many of them think the primary reason their business should do well is because they need the money to support their kids. Their marketing focuses on "Buy from me because I'm a mom" as opposed to actually creating someone different and worth buying, regardless of if you are a mom or an old bachelor or a typing monkey. Sympathy is a very limited marketing angle.

Unfortunately, business is not welfare. Either you run a great business and you roll with the punches like every other business or you fail. Saying, "I shouldn't have to suffer the whims of Google because I'm a single parent" isn't constructive and it doesn't help anything. Finding ways to free that business from total reliance on search listings is a lot more practical and will pay off and support that person more than just whining about unfair it all is.

Feel free to flame me at will; I realize that won't be a popular statement. And for the record, I don't believe being a single mother of 3 entitles me to anything more than anyone else. I would never expect my grocery and mortgage money to come from free search engine listings.

After all, Qwerty has 2 cats to support in the very expensive city of Boston... OWG has a family to support and Wales ain't cheap... Jill has a child in college... we all have our personal financial issues to handle. They have no bearing on whether or not our business is successful.

When I come across businesses built by people who are physically or mentally challenged, I am impressed at what they have accomplished and often it does make a difference as to whether I purchase or not- but it still doesn't mean they shouldn't have to deal with the same rules of search engines as the rest of us.

[dbmasters]

Scottie, whether your statements are popular or not, let me say I whole heartedly agree with you.

Every says they only want a level playing field, but to do that those same people say to do so they need special treatment, which, well, logically makes it unlevel...I don't get it...that fuzzy logic does not compute.

::contemplates adding comment about a hot single mom...nah, I digress::

Edited by dbmasters, 17 November 2005 - 03:19 PM.

[tonts]

WHOA!!!

Where did say anything about special treatment. Those that are running websites without economic ability to buy advertising are relying on free search. When they lose ranking they have big stress....that's all. Scottie, perhaps everyone is not as smart as you. Maybe there are socially challenged people that try the best they can. All I'm saying is there is nothing wrong with a little compassion for their
situation. That's all. No where in my post did I suggest they should get special treatment from G or anyone else.

I have a 30 year old neice with the mental capacity of a 12 year old. She lives on her own and does an Ebay gig with discarded clothing to survive. She has no other ability to get a job. I admire the tenacity they show. They try their best without any means to advertise.

[Michael Martinez]

If you're generating business through free SERPs, then you should be able to afford some sort of PPC campaign before long. If you're not making money with the free listings, then it shouldn't matter.

[clueless]

I won't flame you Scottie - I like your "in the eye of the beer holder" and I fully agree with what you say. The Web is real. Until those kinds of arguments carry weight in the brick and mortar world, they don't work online either. Virtual or not, it's the real world - I expect from my competition the very best they can muster - and I offer mine in return. That's the exchange. No one would reasonably except to succeed as a grocer simply because they like stocking shelves more than the next fella. For some reason, that logic doesn't typically transfer to the online world. It should.

[energybalance]

Whatever the degree of reliance on free SE listings, its when Google delivers the spammer sites, or sites who have joined link farms, well it just seems unfair. Whilst it is delivering free listings, then they can at least be fair about it.

Sure business aint fair.. survival of the fittest yadda yadda.

But for some people, it can really hurt.