18 replies to this topic

[morch]

Hi

Thought Id raise this point and try and find out more about the relationship between PR status and the Google serps.

Im a baby in seo terms and generally pick up what I can when I can and then apply as many "safe" techniques to my site as possible.

Google PR can be all consuming and despite trying to let my site develop naturally and pick up its own momentum, Ive still got bitten by the PR bug and been fairly obsessed about gaining PR. The last 3 months have been spent writing a good content site with lost of pages optimised for say 2 -3 KW per page.

At long last after the recent major Google update (last two main updates have been on the 26th of the month - supplementing the rolling updates) Ive gained a PR of 5 on my main page. All other pages have been lifted to around 4.

However - I dont notice any change in my serps for any KW. Given that this is the ultimate aim you could say I was a little cheesed off.

I realise that Im probably very niaive in expecting everything to improve following a modest pr boost. I would like to know more about the relationship between the serps and improving PR to put the issue into perspective. Is it a waiting game? Is there really no guarantee of improving your results by lifting PR. Given Google's (alleged) state of flux is Pr less and less of a factor?

Any advice much appreciated

Morch

[qwerty]

The PR of a given page is part of Google's total ranking algo, but nobody outside Google really knows how big a part it is. And keep in mind the PR is only about the links pointing to a page. For all we know, your improved PR has improved your ranking, but not for the term on which you happen to be searching.

If you have the same anchor text on all of the backlinks, I would think that that would be the term you're most likely to see a ranking boost on.

You wrote that

Google PR can be all consuming and despite trying to let my site develop naturally and pick up its own momentum, Ive still got bitten by the PR bug and been fairly obsessed about gaining PR. The last 3 months have been spent writing a good content site with lost of pages optimised for say 2 -3 KW per page.

That strategy is going to help you with everything -- not just PR. So don't worry. You're on the right track.

[Jill]

However - I dont notice any change in my serps for any KW. Given that this is the ultimate aim you could say I was a little cheesed off.

That's why there's absolutely no reason to sit and watch your PageRank. It will not effect your positioning in the SERPs (for the most part). If all else is equal, sure the higher PR page might rank higher, but it might not also.

Fuggetabout it and go about the business of your site that does make a difference.

Jill

[digitalpoint]

I still think PageRank is a decently large part of the algorithm, but I think PageRank is internally calculated daily... the monthly back link/PR update is really just for informational purposes.

- Shawn

[Jill]

I still think PageRank is a decently large part of the algorithm,...

Except that it's not.

Jill

[morch]

Thanks for your replies

Jill - you dont seem over impressed with PR! Ive noticed a few times in this forum that you downplay its significance and this seems to conflict views from well regarded experts in the business.

I dont think many of them would care to cross swords with you but Id be interested in your reasoning. Could be you're just keeping our feet on the ground given the histeria that exists on PR generally.

Or maybe you just disagree with the point that its a major influence rather than simply one of a hundred or so features effecting the G serps.

Just curious as to your thinking on this!

Morch

[Jill]

Hi Morch,

Could you point me to those other well-respected experts whose views mine conflict with?

I daresay even Chris Ridings who wrote the PageRank Uncovered paper agrees that in the total scheme of things, PageRank isn't all that important. I'd be interested in knowing who you believe does feel it has significant weight in Google's algorithm. Cuz I don't know anyone who does (not any experts at least).

Jill

[Jill]

Further, remember, I'm only talking about PageRank here. Not words that might be in a link from another site. That's a whole 'nother ballgame, of which I agree has significant importance.

Jill

[morch]

Name names? wish I could - I can probably give you a few "handles" that sell PR bigtime in other forums (webmaster world - sshhh!) but thats about it.

Some people are obsessed by PR. Maybe they are not "experts" - maybe they should read more and talk less - maybe I should read less and talk lesser still.

I get the message that in your view - PR isnt that big a deal and its probably far more important to focus on elements that do make a difference ie: anchor text, content, good links etc

Im bowing here in deference to the queen of seo, the hostess with the mostess and the mistress of all she surveys.

Morch
creep creep

[Jill]

LOL

Morch, I'm not trying to pick on you, but that's exactly it. There are tons of people who think they know what they're talking about, but they don't always understand the nuances.

I'm certainly not always right about everything (although mostly! ), but I do try to give well-thought-out and reasoned answers based on my real world knowledge and experience. There's a big difference between that and simply regurgitating what one may have heard or read elsewhere.

Some things are pretty obvious, however, and the fact that PageRank is only one small part of Google's algorithm is one of those things. Just look at the serps and look at the pagerank's that show up. Easy enough to check and easy enough to see that it's not a hugely important factor. (At least as shown on the toolbar representation.)

Jill

[digitalpoint]

Well, maybe it doesn't count as much as it did before... but I do know that I usually see any new page we put up within our digitalpoint.com domain on the first page of results pretty much instantly. The only way I can explain it is the domain's base PageRank of 7...

Some examples...

Put up a page for radius server software... 36 hours from being uploaded to the server it was not only in the index, but it was #2 for "radius server software".

"keyword tracker" puts us at #2 & #3 (above even keyword-tracker.com).

"database management software" is #8 (out of 11.7 million).

"offsite backup" is #5

Some accidental ones as well:

#1 for "spanish quotes"

#5 for "merchant account application"

(there are hundreds of similar examples within digitalpoint.com... we get about 15,000 visitors per day just from random searches)

For a few weeks I was #5 for "ebay motor"... and all I had was that string deep in a personal webpage.

I don't claim to really know anything about SEO (I'm a coder, not a marketer), but so far PageRank seems to be the only way I've been able to explain it.

- Shawn

[Jill]

Shawn, since most of the keyword phrases you are getting ranked for don't have more than 12 searches a day (according to WordTracker) it's not at all surprising that you can easily rank high for them so quickly.



Jill

[digitalpoint]

Sorry if I sound ignorant (because I am), but what you are saying is that Google gives us high ranking for certain pages (even though there millions of pages in the results) simply because the number of end users searching for them is low?

And if that's the case and it really has nothing to do with PageRank, why not other sites?

Another example... ranked #1 and #2 for "oracle forum"... again, not a hugely competitive keyword group, but then again, I'm not competing for keywords and not doing any real SEO. From what I'm understanding, you are saying that out of 1.3 million pages we have #1 and #2 because not a lot of people search for it? We have no external links to it... only the normal internal navigation links... (turn filtering off with Google and we have #1, #2 and #3).

Again, same thing with "filemaker help"... we rank #1 (above FileMaker, Inc's support site, which has 775 links).

And as far as the ranking being that way because people don't search on it, that still seems odd. I could see it being less competitive for SEO because they don't monetize on it, but there still are millions of pages in the results... and it's not like there are more end user searches for them.

It must have *something* to do with PageRank to some extent... I find it hard to believe that they are all random flukes, but then again... I don't claim to be a SEO expert. Just a coder.

- Shawn

[Jill]

Sorry if I sound ignorant (because I am), but what you are saying is that Google gives us high ranking for certain pages (even though there millions of pages in the results) simply because the number of end users searching for them is low?

No, not at all. Becuase no one is optimizing for them, that's all.

Those millions of results in Google don't mean that those are pages that you're competing with. They just happen to have one or more of those words on them somewhere (or pointing to them somewhere).

If the phrases were worth optimizing for, more people would be, and then you wouldn't such results so quickly or easily. That's all I'm saying.

Just make a page with the kinds of phrases you are talking about, use the phrase 3 or 4 times in the copy and then in the title tag and "voila"! Instant high rankings!

Jill

[digitalpoint]

I'm still not so sure... I think PR has *something* (even if a small amount) to do with it... I'd bet money if you had two identical pages (with identical links), one with higher PageRank than the other, the higher PageRank version would win the SERP battle.

Might be a good experiment to run... if you are saying PageRank does not matter at all, then two identical pages (each with identical links) should be on the same page of SERP results regardless of PageRank.

Personally, I would guess they would not be on the same page of results (or even within a few pages of each other).

Of course, this is your area of expertise, not mine... so you probably are right... {going back to coding}

- Shawn