225 replies to this topic

[Jill]

Awhile back when we were discussing search engine spam, someone once posted something that stuck in my head and really changed the way I look at it.

Since there's no need to submit to search engines, it's they who are indexing and listing the pages on your server. Therefore, you can upload whatever types of pages you want to your server, and make sure they are linked to one way or another, and they may get indexed.

If the engine chooses to list and rank those pages, then you're not actually spamming the engines.

Sure, they can also drop your pages or ban your site or whatever if they feel that the quality of what they've indexed is no good, but as long as you don't care that they do that (since you don't care if they index them in the first place) then it's not spam.

In the days when you had to physically submit your spammy pages to the engines, then I would contend you were spamming them. But what about now? I just can't see how what you upload on your server and link to can be considered spamming the engines.

I'm certainly not saying that anyone should do this, as I still think it's stupid since you can have long-term success making a great site. I am simply saying that it's up to the engines to decide what they want to index and keep indexed, or not.

Is there a flaw in this argument somehow that I'm not thinking of?

[qwerty]

When you upload content that is only seen by the search engine, because your server is checking for the identity of their spider, you are at least under some circumstances spamming them.

As always, it comes down to intent more than action. If the search engine concludes that you've done something with the intent of deceiving them and gaming the algo, they're going to view you as having spammed them.

[Jill]

When you upload content that is only seen by the search engine, because your server is checking for the identity of their spider, you are at least under some circumstances spamming them.

No, no, no, that's not what I'm talking about.

It's just content that is on your server and it's linked to. There's no IP delivery or checking for bots.

Is this spam? Not imo.

If the search engine concludes that you've done something with the intent of deceiving them and gaming the algo, they're going to view you as having spammed them.

Yes, I agree. But what if you don't care?

I'm just saying that there's certainly nothing immoral or unethical or evil or bad about loading these pages on your server. What happens after that is out of your control. If you don't care about not getting indexed, or getting indexed and banned, then you can basically do whatever you want on your server.

[xScottx]

I agree that there's nothing immoral or bad about uploading whatever you want on your own server, but in essence, you know that the search engines are going to eventually look at that information. So it's not really that you would be actively SPAMMING, but I would still consider it spam.

Really though, if you're dealing with your own site and you don't care if it gets banned, I agree 100% that you can upload whatever you want. Granted, if you're trying to get a completely irrelevant page to show up for something that isn't going to help the average searcher at all, then you're just wasting everyone's time. But if you have a good product/site/information, and you don't care if you could get banned for it, I say upload whatever you want. It's not your fault if the SEs like it.

When dealing with a client, of course it's a completely different story...

So I guess my take is that although you aren't spamming per se, you still know that it IS spam and that it will be found by the search engines...and in most cases, you hope the search engine indexes it and loves it, so you're kinda "passively" spamming.

Either way, I think it's still spam. But wow, my first post, and it was the most confusing thing I've ever written.

[Jill]

Welcome Scott!

It was a good first post!

...and you don't care if you could get banned for it, I say upload whatever you want. It's not your fault if the SEs like it.

Exactly!

Regarding doing it for yourself or for a client, say your client sells viagra or whatever and they want you to do whatever you can to get them the most exposure at any given time. As long as they're on board with what you're doing, then it seems okay to me in that case too.

None of this is smart for a real business with a real brand and a real website of course. It would be stupid. And really I don't know any who consider themselves "spammers" or "blackhats" or whatever that would use stuff like this on a real business site.

If you read what those people write on forums and articles, they have mostly seem to come around to the fact that most real businesses have no need to do anything spammy.

[projectphp]

I agree that there's nothing immoral or bad about uploading whatever you want on your own server

Except for sniff movies etc etc etc.

The flaw in your argument Jill is that passivity is still bad. People can be convicted of crimes for not doing, as well as doing. What was that awesome Jodie Fister movie where she was raped in a bar again? The accused (jodie foster rape movie... odd search term that... DEFINITELY a tail term ) People were in trouble for watching and doing nothing. Ditto this new post Enron stuff, where you dob in your bosses bad behaviour.

IMHO, one isn't just passively uploading a file with white on white text for no reason with no knowledge of search engines now, is one? I mean heck, what is the reason for that? You just like you text invisible? One is spamming in such an instance. The spamming is in the way pages are built, not in the submitting bit.

As Homer J is fond of saying, "OK pie, I am going to go like this, and if you get eaten, it is your own fault." (two Homer J quotes in a day... good day!!!!)

So no, that argument doesn't hold for mine.

[Alarr]

I would define spam as any practice that attempts to artificially manipulate SERP.

If you are uploading hidden pages not visible to people, only to SE's, I would consider that spam. I feel is exploiting a hole in SE technology which the SE did not intend.

A company caled me a few weeks ago and boasted that they created a program that creates dynamic pages as a search engine crawls their page. The Web site has only 12 Web pages, yet, this major search engine has over 1,800 pages indexed. I would consider that spam.

[qwerty]

But what if you don't care?

If you don't care, it won't matter to you whether the page or the site get dropped. But that doesn't make it any more or less spam. Spamming a search engine is (by my definition) doing something which they view as an attempt to deceive them. It's breaking their rules, whether you meant to or not, as long as they decide that you meant to, and I doubt very much that they care whether you care either way.

Let's say someone's playing golf on a public course, and they get chosen at random to get a free membership to some fancy private club. They didn't seek it, they didn't even necessarily want it, but they got it.

On their first trip to the private club, this person breaks every rule they've got -- not because he meant to, and not because he cares either way. He's just doing what he does. So he gets his membership revoked.

How is the result of his breaking their rules any different from the result of him doing these things because he's an anti-golf activist and he did it all as a political statement?

[xScottx]

qwerty, I think a better example would be to say that the person who received the free golf membership already had a background check done...and the country club already knew he was a deceiving person, but let him in anyway. Likewise, the search engine can see your spammy content, but if it isn't in their algorithm or whatnot to disallow it, and they let you in anyway, then that's on their shoulders.

So if they gave him a free membership, even though his deceptive ways were always known, why should he have to worry about it or clean up his act? If they decide down the road that they don't want to deal with him, then that's fine, they can kick him out and take his golf membership. He doesn't care either way. He never asked for the membership.

Just a thought.


(although I must say, I do still think in the case of this thread, it is definitely still spamming, but it's an interesting perspective)

[lyn]

Likewise, the search engine can see your spammy content, but if it isn't in their algorithm or whatnot to disallow it, and they let you in anyway, then that's on their shoulders.

The problem I see here is that everything we usually think of as spam is implemented with the intent to exploit those holes in the algorithm. Spam that doesn't fool the search engines is just a failed code.
I don't really think it's relevant whether the page is "submitted" to the search engines directly or simply posted to your server with a link from another page. It's still spider bait. The spam is in the content fed to the SEs, not in the channel that's used to deliver it.
As said above, intent has a lot to do with it, too. If the purpose is to feed sh** to the SEs and tell them it's sugar, I'd call it spam!
IMHO

L.

[Jill]

Good answers so far, guys. But I'm still not convinced.

People were in trouble for watching and doing nothing. Ditto this new post Enron stuff, where you dob in your bosses bad behaviour.

Watching and doing nothing seems at first like a good analogy, but I don't think it really is. First of all, nobody is watching a crime. They're simply uploading icky pages to their server.

IMHO, one isn't just passively uploading a file with white on white text for no reason with no knowledge of search engines now, is one? I mean heck, what is the reason for that? You just like you text invisible? One is spamming in such an instance. The spamming is in the way pages are built, not in the submitting bit.

Well, what if you find that search engines seem to find these pages and seem to rank them highly, so you do it because of that? Obviously they like 'em right? If they didn't like 'em they wouldn't eat them up and rank them highly? And really since you don't care either way, you're not doing anything wrong, right?

If you are uploading hidden pages not visible to people, only to SE's, I would consider that spam.

But I'm not talking about pages that are not visible to people and only to search engines. They are visible to anyone and everyone.

Spamming a search engine is (by my definition) doing something which they view as an attempt to deceive them. It's breaking their rules, whether you meant to or not, as long as they decide that you meant to, and I doubt very much that they care whether you care either way.

Whether you meant to or not? But don't you always say that spam has a big part to do with intent? (Or maybe it's not you...but me...but somebody says it! )

On their first trip to the private club, this person breaks every rule they've got -- not because he meant to, and not because he cares either way. He's just doing what he does. So he gets his membership revoked.

He is physically going there to their country club and wrecking stuff though. I would agree that this analogy might apply to the person who is physically submitting their page to a search engines. But if they're not, then I don't see it applying. They're just uploading pages, and the engine finds them and apparently likes 'em. (At least temporarily.)

The problem I see here is that everything we usually think of as spam is implemented with the intent to exploit those holes in the algorithm.

Okay if that's true, then they would be spam. But is spam wrong then? It is our fault that search engines are too dumb to not plug up their holes? If they have holes we shouldn't use them? (Assuming we don't care when they do finally plug them up and are perfectly willing to face the consequences.)

[Alarr]

Good answers so far, guys.  But I'm still not convinced.
Well, what if you find that search engines seem to find these pages and seem to rank them highly, so you do it because of that?  Obviously they like 'em right? If they didn't like 'em they wouldn't eat them up and rank them highly? And really since you don't care either way, you're not doing anything wrong, right?
Whether you meant to or not?  But don't you always say that spam has a big part to do with intent?  (Or maybe it's not you...but me...but somebody says it! )
Okay if that's true, then they would be spam.  But is spam wrong then?  It is our fault that search engines are too dumb to not plug up their holes?  If they have holes we shouldn't use them?  (Assuming we don't care when they do finally plug them up and are perfectly willing to face the consequences.)

Most programs will have holes and those that will exploit those holes. I agree, it's the responsability for SE's to close those holes... but it is our choice if we choose to exploit them. Exploits are not a responsible choice if you ask me.

[lyn]

(Assuming we don't care when they do finally plug them up and are perfectly willing to face the consequences.)

TP had no problem with consequences of spamming. That doesn't mean they weren't spamming!

Got a problem with the idea that "if they didn't like them, they wouldn't gobble them up..." , too. What the SEs "love" is quality content to present to searchers. They know that the product is imperfect, so they keep trying to improve. Obviously, they don't love all the results they present.

It's like saying that it's OK to counterfeit $100 bills as long as long as nobody has figured out how to tell they're phony.

L.

[xScottx]

It's like saying that it's OK to counterfeit $100 bills as long as long as nobody has figured out how to tell they're phony.

It is...isn't it?


In all seriousness though, I think Jill's original question has kind of been swallowed up by ethics and what the SEs determine as spam...

I think the basic act of putting whatever you want on your servers is okay. Yes, we all know that the SEs are eventually going to see it and index it and possibly be deceived. But just putting whatever you want on your site...even if it is spam...is okay because it's your site, your host, your space on the Web.

I mean, what if something else came along that looked at all of the content on the Web (like a search engine does) and then decided to do something with that content based on what it said and how it was laid out? Why should you have to conform to what it wants ...considering you never asked it to look at your content?

I think that's the basic question here. The problem is that we all KNOW that SEs are going to find our stuff, so we shouldn't deceive. But at the same time, it's our space and site. They're the visitors here. We didn't go to them.

[Jill]

TP had no problem with consequences of spamming. That doesn't mean they weren't spamming!

That situation is a bit different in that they didn't appear to let their clients in on the risk that was involved, and the clients didn't necesssarily agree to that risk.

The spammers I know would agree that is very nasty and bad business practice.

It's like saying that it's OK to counterfeit $100 bills as long as long as nobody has figured out how to tell they're phony.

That's a good analogy. Except you'd have to physically spend it, and in doing so you'd be committing a crime.

Ok, so let's say you've all convinced me that it's spam to passively put pages on my server that don't quite conform to the search engines arbitrary "guidelines."

What do you think of this scenario...is it worse than spamming (as outlined in this thread), not as bad, or just as bad?

Someone or some company claims to be able to get high rankings for people's sites, but when push comes to shove, they really can't. They make a few changes, supply some meta tags for the keywords that the client supplies, and that's about it. The client may or may not see a few high rankings, but really doesn't see any noticeable rise in traffic or sales.

They don't use any spam techniques or anything like that. They follow search engine guidelines to the tee. They just don't get results.

To me, that is 1000 times worse than a company that uses spam techniques but at least gets rankings, traffic and sales to the site. They at least are doing what they claim they will do.

Comments?