27 replies to this topic

[microbe]

SEO IMHO should be a combination of html skills, copyrighting, programming if needed be, usability and

"copyWRITING" sorry always makes me do a double take though.

But I think you are right. Maybe it would make most sense to sell Site Optimisation instead of SEO. Also, another area I am struggling with is ad optimisation, It seems to me that click rates are going to be affected by placement, context, surrounding content, size and all sorts of factors which will vary from page to page.

[way2stay]

Hello, besides seo's that promise you the moon, I also would like to mention the customers who don't know what kind of service they buy from a seo.

My story is that I was not aware of what seo means and trusted very quick the words of a sales person. A lucky thing was that I decided not to work with them because of other reasons. Another company is now programming my website and they didn't offer the seo, so I decided to do it myself as good as possible.

So I joined the forum and started to read and quickly I discovered several points that was just not true in the proposal of the first company. For example I had to use different domain names which where to long to remember, such as www.company-destination-product.com while in the first 10 minutes reading in this forum I discovered that this is not really important.

I understand there is frustation of being a good seo's and being in the middle of so much low quality bugs, but it must be also blamed on the customers who just have no background knowledge, like I started.

Companies should first get knowledge before they buy services, just like all other purchases they normally do, and not get trilled by only hearing that you become #1. I hope like this a lot of service companies would skip the seo out of their package and concentrate on what they are really good at.

Regards to you all.

Ronald

[ChipJohns]

We all have our specialties for sure. I also think that it is important for web developers to know about everything that is necessary. I was asked to look at this site to see what could be done.

The problem is, well, Flash! This wasn't just your normal Flash full of problems site. Not only was the site built with Flash components, it was also built in frames.

I have done my fair share of Flash Dev, and it does have it's place. But, c'mon! The programmer did an excellent job of Flash Development. Its a little tricky, and you have to know what you are doing to have Flash call another flash file into html of another frame. From a developers standpoint, its pretty fun. But, in most applications, it is completely impractical.

Imagine having flash pulling in another flash file from one part of the frameset to another! This site is completely, impossible to optimize for seo. Other than title, the only text is buried within frames. The entire site runs from just one frameset, so all content is completely isolated.

The Point
Understanding the client is so very important. This Flash would not always be a bad thing. *IF* you know that the customer isn't going to rely on SE traffic. Not the case here. It is vital for this business, that his site rank, and, I'm sure he has spent a few denari for this eloquently programmed Flash site.

This web developer has performed a great disservice to an unknowing client for his own satisfaction... Shame, Shame, Shame

Not that all web developers need to be able to optimize a site. They do need to know how to build a site so that it can be optimized. A new site should not have to be sent to the SEO Drs to perform major surgery...

I feel that this extends to usability, image optimization, customer profiling, etc, etc....

Another side point: Does it infuriate you when you are reviewing a brand new site that has just been developed and when you open it to view the code there are about 8,000 font tags...I start turning Green and my clothes start ripping apart @:-)

[seo_india]

Thanks for allowing me to post here .I have read all the messages . Some of you said that there new Seo who cannot deliver , some other said that the industry has become that way , etc.
If I May , " Who has made it that way ? "
Answer , Top SEO themselves . I surf about 16 hrs daily . I have come across a hundred sites that are big names in SEO and are selling softwares . To sell this one PIECE , Each is letting out a few so called Guarded Secrets . Please tell me if I am wrong .
How many times do you see Ads that say SEO secrets revealed , SEO tips , SEO Software , etc . on a PPC .
I come across atleast 5 everyday . That too on big PPC service . Is it the BIG PPC who is not filtering any ads before displaying , or is it that the Services ( tips ) are Being delivered ?
There is a post that said that I am a new seo and was hired by a SEO firm because of html . The post also RAISED a Question that " how do you optimise a page without that knowledge ?"
The point is what has been passed on to you ? That is proportional to how effective THEY are or , were .

One post said that a SEO is a combination of copywrighting and many more points are mentioned .

Yes , that can be appreciated to some extent . But as somebody else posted , getting a small medicine when looking for a full treatment .

I think that Copywriting and SEO Copywriting are two different things altogether .
I would not like to have " Attention " , or " Take action now " or " Scientifically proven " as my key phrases .
And as the Sales copies say , these should be in the H1 tags ( large fonts )
SEO says , put your keywords in H1 .
Am I Right ?
( please if a new comer to this topic is reading then please DO NOT follow these tips , as it is incomplete ) .
All of you have been talking that " taking money is easy but performing is difficult " .
I think that the CUSTOMER is smart enough to hire a firm that has a Good POSITION in Search engine themselves . Don't you think It should be considered ?

I am sorry if I have written something that I should not have . If I have then I am SORRY in advance .

Hope to see all you Soon . Ya , the devil always returns for more .
regards

Edited by searchrank, 08 June 2005 - 07:48 PM.

[Randy]

Welcome SEO India !

Yeah, I've seen those hundreds if not thousands of "SEO Secret" things for sale out there too. In all honesty, most of them are complete shams.

The truth is that there aren't really any Secrets at all !

Not everybody can thrive as an SEO/SEM, and too many try to take shortcuts. But reality is that if you have a good understanding of marketing, have a little bit of technical knowledge to create your site, and follow some very basic, common sense ideas you can be a pretty darned good SEO.

No secrets necessary.

[amabaie]

The big problem I find is that prospective clients come looking for guarantees. If you don't give them one, there is always someone who will. As business people, they want to see inputs and outcomes, measurable ROI, etc. in advance. They expect science.

SEO is not science; it is sport. Several websites vying for the ten spots in the top ten for a given search term. Whether 100 are in the race or just two, it doesn't matter; 10 will be in the top 10. Expecting predictable results in sport is ridiculous.

Ironically, I suspect that many of the prospects I have lost are those looking to ripped off with a guarantee...and many of the clients I have obtained are those who have been sobered by just such a rip-off in the past.

[Hyperformance]

Hi SEO India -

One point you made that we do use is;

"If the company claims they can make things happen for you in the top 3 pages for your major keyword phrases - organically, then show the customer some real Rankings for your firm... and not with obscure terms, but keywords or phrases with some relative popularity" This absolutely proves (organically) if you can do what you say you can do. If you cannot do it for your firm, how can you do it for mine?

IMO - If that company can not (or will not) produce those type of facts for you, and you cannot find them online yourself, even guessing at their keywords (which you don't really have to guess) then, I would not hire the firm. We actually use this... it does offer a certain amount of protection for the one who is seeking the assistance, but it is not the end-all for making the decision.

I would also like to state that we DO offer a guarantee - It is a "best effort" guarantee with specific benchmarks. The guarantee is to allow the prospect the potential of money returned if we do not meet the goals outlined with them when the plan is designed, layed out, and agreed upon. When I personally spend thousands of dollars, I like (prefer) a guarantee, some type of guarantee. I do not however, place our company in the "guaranteed rip-off" category that amabaie eluded to. This was a way for US to offer our clients a "comfort level" that is sometimes necessary in their buying decision process.

P.S. - We have never had an issue with, nor had any reason to return any funds under our guarantee (no client has requested to, or disputed our work, or our results...) This goes back to the goals and setting the right expectations up-front and then exceeding them.

Good Luck -

[abertawe]

I would just like to say what an interesting read this has been.

Just a couple of points.

I totally agree with amabaie, what we do is sport, we all want to be No. 1 and lets hope it stays that way because that is what makes it exciting.

I have been lucky enough to have worked on both agency and client side. I personally much prefer client side, because you spend all your time developing a brand online.

Agencies just don't have the resources for this. I have worked on some major nationals even multi nationals on agency side and they just didn't get there monies worth, IMO. There are of course some agencies whose time management is excellent and offer a fantastic service and may that continue.

I have always strived to provide a service that is fair and honest and don't use techniques like cloaking and stopped using doorway pages years ago. It is great to see that others with my ideals are still out there. Good luck to Chip John. I hope to follow in your footsteps shortly myself - own company. In fact good luck to you all. Lets hope the SEO/SEM industry just goes from strength to strength.

[braveheartdesign]

Great comments searchrank.

We do the same thing. We never talk about #1 positions with a client, instead we focus on increasing the amount of qualified traffic to the client's web site and then converting the traffic into leads and/or sales.

At the end of the day a client will leave us for another SEO company because they are not making enough sales on their web site not because of rankings. Great rankings mean nothing if they don't generate leads/sales. Average rankings on a well designed web site with good copy can result in a very happy client.

Now great rankings and a well designed web site with good copy is the ultimate goal, but clients are patient in getting towards Nirvana if they see sales increasing along the way.

David

[Raphael]

Great rankings mean nothing if they don't generate leads/sales. Average rankings on a well designed web site with good copy can result in a very happy client.

I've been saying that for ages. Your rank means nothing if you can't convert your traffic.

[Leom]

Great topic.

I sometimes feel clients WANT to buy based on emotion rather than logic and reason when it comes to SEO. Why? They don't quite understand it, they don't want to understand it, they just want to hear "they can be number 1".

Add a slick sales rep and an "cheap" price, the company will get burned and the entire SEO industry loses another prospect. In the end, the company will suffer as a result of halting their Internet efforts until they get over getting burned by a hack.

I'm not an SEO, I'm more of an SEM consultant. But I try to explain to my clients that SEO is like going to the doctor. It's a practice. Always changing and [we] are learning all the time if not something new every week. I try to explain that there is never a guarantee to be number 1 (there is only ONE number one). I often compare SEO to treating an illness "Take this pill and there is a 50 percent chance of success!"

-Just some thoughts

[Britnett]

Glad I am not alone!

We always ask our clients to sign the order that clearly states we are providing a service and not an advert on the search engines. A big part of selling SEO is giving the client the bad news up-front along with the good news. Amazingly so, I still get clients asking why they are not number one in Google within a month and based on a generic key word. I spoke to a client today who said he was disappointed he was not page one for his key word 'football'! When his order listed 'football strip manufacturer' He is p1p1 in Google for that phrase.

I do believe ( I do hope) as awareness grows this situation will decline.

[abertawe]

Britnett, you say...I do believe ( I do hope) as awareness grows this situation will decline.

I have not been in the business as long as many on this forum, but in the five years I have been doing SEO the situation hasn't changed. I think it just goes with the territory, I am afraid to say.