27 replies to this topic

[Jill]

Let's face it, SEO is getting harder and harder these days. Aging delays, spam-clogged results, and millions of pages all vying for the same keywords...what's an SEO to do?

Many who read articles and forums can easily sell SEO to nearly anyone if they want to. They know all the right things to say, and know exactly which buttons to push to get a client to sign on the dotted line.

But what happens after you make that sale? Can you deliver on your promises? Do too many SEO companies sell stuff that they really shouldn't be selling?

It's true that clients are half the problem becuase they expect the moon. And when one SEO company doesn't deliver them their moon, they flit off to the next SEO company who says, "Sure, we can deliver you the moon, no problem...just sign here and send me your money." Then of course, no moon comes and they are off in search of the next company who says "sure, we can do that."

I feel very strongly that as SEOs we have to constantly UNDER promise to the clients what exactly we can do for them. Then of course the idea would be to OVER deliver. But instead, we get the opposite happening. A client thinks they know what they want, the SEO says, ok, and then doesn't do it. They may do an okay job, but why didn't they tell the client that's all they could realistically do? If that's all you can do, then be honest about it! In many industries today, an okay SEO job, is still pretty darn good if you're also fixing up the site for usability, conversions and all that.

It's mostly about managing expectations, but there's also an honesty component to all of this.

What do you guys think?

[Randy]

Just my opinion, but SEO is one of the easiest sales in the history of the world if you're only interested in getting the money.

The clients (usually business people) understand going in that advertising costs money. Or as is commonly said, It takes money to make money.

So getting the money is actually the easiest part IMO.

As Jill pointed out, the hardest part for most it seems is managing client expectations.

Back when I used to do SEO for others I followed Jill's under-promise, over-deliver mantra. I never even discussed rankings except in a very general sense, and then only in the context of hundreds of phrases, not just one or two phrases. I also always made it clear from the outset that it would be an 18 to 24 month process before we should expect to start seeing any significant, stable improvement.

Instead I always keyed the measurement of success on Conversions, which in most cases amounted to increased sales. With the built in time line of course.

It never actually took 18 or 24 months to start seeing real improvement, because even if we weren't yet hitting on all cylinders with the most competitive phrases, after 6-8 months we were getting traffic and sales on lots of less competitive phrases. But because that 18-24 was the time frame originally discussed it was always a nice surprise for the client when they started seeing a significant return on their investment earlier than expected.

I never had a client who ended up being disappointed. Some that got frustrated along the way maybe, until I reminded them that I told them it would take two years and that they shouldn't be whining after only 2 months.

IMO it is absolutely necessary that SEO's set the client expectations right up front. If you don't you're just asking for trouble.

[Hyperformance]

I agree completely...

Not much to add here except that your reputation takes some damage when you can't deliver... no client is small when it's negative word of mouth. Of course like you both eluded to... you have to "care" about a reputation to begin with.












(wants to find those guys promising the moon... )

[microbe]

I get the feeling that most of the people scampering around calling themselves SEO experts know no more about it than could be summarised on the back of a postcard. I scanned through a thread on WMW recently, several hundred posts about the Google Bourbon update all from people who have no idea what is going on, but with a compulsion to share their ignorance... except one, who works for Google and is doing PR for them.

Stuff some keywords and a description in the header, add a title, go get some links. They stop learning when they hear about the mystical PageRank, a powerful and magical incantation. This approach, a kind of "Dr SEO's Magic Elixir" is just the same as the travelling medicine salesman's in the 19th Century, of limited benefit at best and just as effective at separating the naive, gullible or poorly informed from their money.

Jill, from other discussions here, where you have commented on the service you provide and the way you work, it seems to me that you are not 'doing' what most people regard as SEO. What you are providing is much closer to being a business consultancy or marketing consultancy service aimed at overall improvement to a client's site and it performance, but which incorporates SEO techniques.

But it is a bit like someone who goes to their doctor asking for a pill to treat depression and comes away instead with a lifestyle improvement programme dealing with the cause rather than the symptoms. Many will just not bother and go get the pills they want elsewhere.

[Jill]

Great post, Microbe!

I do think in the future, more SEO companies will have to move towards the lifestyle enhancement program, rather than the symptoms, in order to survive. Perhaps not in the pills, porn and rolex areas, but the real businesses will...as we've also discussed here numerous times.

[projectphp]

The problem is market position and the different "need" to amkea sale.

Anyone starting as an SEO, who has no rep, the temptation to promise the Earth and pray and hope would be huge. What do you lose if you fail? Started with nothing. Ended up with nothing. No score draw. Sink or swim is a business strategy so many have employed, some to good effect.

There is nothing lost for the sinkers, because before and after they had no business anyway, but for those of us that want to be in this longer term, the effects are very damaging. It is the professional SEO (as in "makesa living from and wants to keep making a living from") that can suffer the affects of the sink or swimmers, who drag the industry under with them.

The good news (IMHO) is that SEOs that do well, and get solid referals, are benefitting even from the sinkers. The sinkers, inspite of often spectacular failures, offer the rest an ability to distance themselves from the masses, and also to push SEO at all. There is only one thing worse than people speaking about you, and that is no speaking about you

All publicity can be made good publicity, and as long as the SEO industry as a whole promotes itself (and I believe it does quite a good job), then there is nothing to worry about. I think when a company gets a ban, like TP, this is an opportbuity to sell SEO's benefits. I bet Jill got some signups for her newsletter around this time, as did this forum.

Personally, I prefer to promise what I know I can deliver, and look to value add. I also look to define success in a meaningful way. I can't deliver {insert specific ranking for specific term here}, but I can helpa business improve sales generated from Search Leads, and that is what I try to make success defined by.

[randfish]

As far as knowledge goes, I've finally learned enough to know that I know nothing at all. Except for the folks who've actively created search ranking algorithms, my guess is that none of us in this industry can ever learn enough.

Stuff some keywords and a description in the header, add a title, go get some links

The main issue is that many times, these basic tactics will get you where you're going. It will be interesting to see in 5 years how much effort and expertise are neccessary to top competitive phrases using organic methods...

[SearchRank]

I think the key is to show the potential client that you are interested in the "big picture" meaning that you have an interest not only in how well they rank but in seeing their overall business increase as a result of your efforts. Rather than talk about "# 1 positions" or "1st page rankings" you talk about improving search engine visibility, increasing traffic, improving the quality of traffic by selecting the most appropriate key phrases, creating a better visitor experience whether that be improving the navigation system, writing better copy or something else and of course increasing conversions so they gain a good ROI on their investment.

I find that when you listen to a potential client's goals as well as obstacles they may have encountered and then provide a customized solution tailored specifically for them, it sells a lot better then giving them cookie cutter plans.

As for promises, under-promising is necessary because we do not control organic results. We do not even have complete control over AdWords because it is dependant on ad performance. I can usually tell by reviewing a site beforehand whether we can improve all the areas mentioned above. I never promise a certain position or a certain number of visitors, etc. I let them know that they will see improvement in these areas and depending on how competitive their industry is, inform them of how much a challenge it will be.

Unfortunately it is too easy to take SEO money, promising the world and not delivering at least in regards to newbie buyers of SEO services. However, I know that if that had been my practice, my company would not be around today enjoying a reputation of 8 years in the business. So all these new SEOs who have sprouted up whose practice is to over-promise and under-deliver, most likely will not have a very long life span, at least we can hope. ;-)

[Scottie]

For good, bad, or indifferent, a lot of "SEO's" can still succeed by targeting low competition terms where achieving good (and even #1 rankings) isn't hard at all. The client is happy, the "goal" has been achieved.

Ultimately though, I think the customer becomes disenchanted with "the Internet" as a means of marketing because they have "all these great #1 rankings" but they still haven't recouped the cost of the SEO work. They think the Internet "doesn't work" for their business.

I can't tell you how many people I've heard that same story from, normal business people outside the industry of Internet marketing.

They don't think they've been "taken" or scammed, they just think it doesn't work.

[Jill]

They don't think they've been "taken" or scammed, they just think it doesn't work.

And really, they haven't necessarily been scammed. They got exactly what they paid for and were promised.

Unfortunately, too many SEO companies promise stuff that isn't really helpful. In the old days before Wordtracker and Adwords, etc., there was no way to know which keyword phrases were good or not so good. These days, there's really no excuse for choosing only] not so good ones. But if you're not the great SEO in the world, that's really the only way you can actually deliver what you promise.

[projectphp]

So, we are back to what to promise, not delivering on a promise. I think that is an important distinction.

The reputation of the industry is effected just as much, if not more, by those that get lit

You can convince the scammed that they were, in fact, scammed. Those that got bad results will be much harder to convince

[ChipJohns]

I am just starting out in seo as a business. I have been consulting for quite a few years for usability, marketing, education, etc. and I have helped some people out with a few projects, nothing major..

Having moved I needed to pick up some work rather quickly and took a job with an seo company with about 12 employees. I was appalled at what took place.

When I got the job, I was excited to learn more about this exciting part of web development. After working just a few days I learned that one of the reasons the hired me was that I know html. This firm has been around since 1997 and there isn't a single person on board who knows html. Sure they can putz around a web page; but, not a single person is able to sit down and create a page using notepad.

I'm thinking, "How can you optimize a web page when you don't know html? "
This place is running a lot of business through its doors and it offers the moon to everyone.

I am no longer working for them.. I am going to do it on my own. I am actually grateful to them for what they've done for me. I am going to be able to offer a superior product base on truthful, honest, service. And when a client is only paying $500 they are going to get a little more than 45 min of my time and new title tags.

I look forward to being a part of the SEO community for a long time. There are a lot of people that feel its not necessary, and there are a lot of business owners who understand the worth of the investment they make.

You guys who have been doing this for a long time, Thanks! And, I see it as just the beginning, seo is just getting started and there is nowhere to go except up. (And if your there, you need to stay there; so seo is necessary to STAY up!) @;-)

I mean this to be positive... There are people like this everywhere, in every kind of business. The ones ready to take advantage of others. Then there are people who get rich from helping others get rich.. .This is where I want to be.

[Randy]

I can't tell you how many times I've heard a similar version of the same story you've told Chip. There are lots of places out there that give the industry a bad name, unfortunately.

Like I said above, selling SEO is actually pretty darned easy. Even if someone doesn't know what they're doing.

Based upon what you've said above, you'll do quite well with it. The Usability and Marketing background of your consulting will certainly be a huge plus. Most likely in no time at all you'll end up having to turn away business because there simply aren't enough hours in the day. Especially after you've had some success for a few clients. Word of mouth advertising alone will have them knocking down your door.

One thing I've often wondered about the folks doing the shady stuff... Is it a matter of having no business morals, or is it simply a case of a little bit of knowledge being a very dangerous thing?

[mcanerin]

But it is a bit like someone who goes to their doctor asking for a pill to treat depression and comes away instead with a lifestyle improvement programme dealing with the cause rather than the symptoms. Many will just not bother and go get the pills they want elsewhere

"New-Age" Holistic SEO. I like it. Sounds like a good title for an article - maybe a followup to a Zen one

Ian

[ewc21]

Indeed, as the search engine technology opens up opportunities to everyone hooked to the web, everybody is trying to cash in and want a piece of the Internet cashpile.

That is why for all wrong reasons, companies end up doing the black hat SEO methods when they realize that the ethical means have been exhausted and nothing happened, and they need to show some 'progress' to their client in the next 48 hours.

It is where guarantees will eventually haunt an SEO company if the perception to doing SEO is simple as ABC (put the right links, description, alt tags) when we say this is not enough (backlinks, reciprocal links, grammatically correct copies, regular updates, interesting articles, [url=http://www.highrankings.com/forum/index.php?showforum=21]Submitting to Directories[/url], etc should also be done.). That's where Randy's last sentence hits spot on. Lack of knowledge is dangerous.

SEO IMHO should be a combination of html skills, copyrighting, programming if needed be, usability and keen adoption to ever changing methods that work (accepted as ethical, not deceptive), something I believe many SEOs don't have that package rolled in one. Hence, the black hats.