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B Better Than H1
Posted 29 March 2005 - 02:31 PM
I'm afraid you just can't "score" different design elements like that for SEO purposes. It simply doesn't work that way.
I'm sure you realize that just because something helped 10 years ago, doesn't mean that it currently does.
And I'm not saying that H tags do or do not help. I've just not seen any recent evidence to conclude anything either way. Therefore, I would suggest that you use those tags where they make sense to do so, as per WC3 specifications, and not really worry about it as far as SEO is concerned.
As to the weight any given tag is given, one cannot place a number on it, because each tag doesn't work in isolation, but in a synergistic way with the other tags, copy, links, etc. on any given page.
An H tag on one page may very well be given some weight if the right magic mix is there, and may very well be given none on another page if the right mix is not there.
SEO is not black and white, and neither are tags. You simply can't number the weight of any specific SEO technique, which you should surely know since you've been doing SEO for 10 years just like I have.
Posted 29 March 2005 - 11:45 PM
italics is a 2 score and bold is a 3 score.. fyi.
H1s should be a 5 score unless the words used in the H1 are not repeated in the following text, then it is a 3 score (same as bold)
Just so everyone is clear, there is no way known that anyone can state that any element in any algo has any "score" except for those that programme the algorithms themselves. Besides, we don't even know what the score is out of 5 versus 3 out of 400,000 isn't a lot, but 3 vs 5 is huge if it is out of 10.
Any statement about any specific element having any specific "scoring potential" is just pure, unadulterated speculation. While we may hold views that certain elements have a value in SE algos, we can't ever be specific.
This is infact the problem with any sort of SEO testing: there are no specifics, we can't iolate enough elements and we can't know tomorrow if what we saw yesterday still holds.
Posted 30 March 2005 - 08:29 AM
if there was ... that would make things so simple! it'd also make things just as simple for the spammers. plus what could be weighted as one thing today, .... tomorrow could be another value, thus changing any kind of testing and their results. we all know the SE's tweak their algo's to get the best results for their searchers .... so saying that there is any kind of score related to a bold or h1 tag is IMHO just as you said "pure, unadulterated speculation".
on another note ...interesting enough this thread has got some notice on SEO Roundtable What Attribute Ranks Better Bold or H1 On A Page ? compliments of Phoenix
Edited by storyspinner, 30 March 2005 - 09:34 AM.
Posted 30 March 2005 - 09:34 AM
I'll talk about Lea's because it's the only one where I managed to find the "seed page" that links to all the test pages.
Here comes the swoop....
Look at how Lea says the order of rankings are: H1 is on top, with bold next, and strong after that. Now, look at the order that the control page links to the test pages: H1 is on top, with bold next, and strong after that. Notice any similarities? The pages seem to have vanished from the DC at Google that I'm hitting, so I can't really see if there are other patterns, but...
Another thing that shold be noted - the control page doesn't have a very high PR, and there are a lot of links on it. Thus, some links probably won't get crawled until a real PR is calculated for it. Same is true with other engines.
I'm seeing some results on MSN now, though. MSN is clustering pages in the same order above, but it does one of the H pages, then a Bold page, then a strong page, then it starts back at the top. So, it looks like link priority is a part of it (just as in Google) but MSN is also shuffling them a bit for unique content (maybe in the Title section?) The "A" "B" and "C" change and the names of the used tags change. So, it's shown you "H1 - A" already and though, linkwise, "H1 - B" should be next, "Bold - A" is more different and if the first one doesn't have the answer to the searcher's question, the first "bold" one is more likely to than the second H1 page.
Really, the only thing about this experiment that I found interesting is from Yahoo. It's only got two pages in the index and they are the ones linked to last and not first. So, for Yahoo their crawling preference (no conclusion for ranking preference) seems that they might work from the bottom up.
In the end, it's simply impossible to do an experiment like this. There's just no way that you can make everything the same except for the elements you're trying to measure. One will always be linked to differently than another, for starters.
Posted 30 March 2005 - 10:53 AM
More fun that pocking stick in bullant nest.
I think Ive just had my fun for the day. I posted on "another SEO Forum" asking about the "value" of H1,2,3 etc not long ago. -was it me that inadvetantly created this furor on 2 forums - ah who cares.
At that time I was experimenting with CSS, W3C Validation and hair tearing over keywords. The question arose cos I had to validate, I also had to decide on the CSS format. I also had to clean up code. To B to to H1 or to SPAN
I decide to do both.
The trick is this and I was impressed at the result.
The H1 indexed on the NEW h1 text in 2 days flat and i did it in the middle of the dance. Now the interesting thing is it also picked up on B text elsewhere in the page and newly indexed that, but it came in under the H1 index listing.
What does it mean - DUNNO - except that my page now is now more indexed than before.
I supect it is all due to the optimisation of the pages i worked on in general.
My take on this is - They all matter and cannot be separated.
To much code is penalised, poor construct and contextual flow is punished. This means the textual content and relevence along with headings, bold, and keywords, and W3C - its all part of SEO and cannot be plucked out - my thoughts.
Jill and all there - thanks for the assistance over the past weeks with advice and all - it is slowly paying off. The site looks better, indexes better and maybe oneday - traffic will flow
Posted 30 March 2005 - 11:53 AM
Rarely, if ever, is something punished or penalized. Everyone here who ever reads this thread needs to get this notion out of their minds right now. If you are looking at SEO from this perspective, then you are going to be swimming upstream the whole time.
Certain things will get you punished or penalized, but those things are bad. And, if you are punished or penalized - you'll know it. Believe me - you'll know.
Things like using the wrong tag (H1 or Bold) or using them too much or too little won't hurt you in the least. They merely won't help you as much. Virtually everything in SEO boils down to degrees of "how much it will help". Every page starts with a value of 0. Everything you do, builds upon that number to varying degrees. Get a link from someone, that 0 becomes a larger number? How much larger? Well, it depends upon where the link comes from, the context of that link, and so on. Add some text to your page and that page value goes up again - how much? It depends. Apply formatting to your text and it''ll help that value go up - especially for certain words. How much? It depends.
And so on.
If we keep equating non-optimal usage of things like formatting tags with real live penalties like taking part in a link farm scam, then it really hurts the people coming in here who are trying to find real answers.
You could put your entire page inside an H tag. Would it help? No. Would it hurt? No.
Let's all just take a moment and step away from all the propoganda and fear ("Oh my god, I linked to Amazon and my page went down! Have I been banned!!!!????). Let's take a deep breath and say, "If I did it to rank better, it probably won't help me much. If I did it because it helps with relevance and improves content and I hope it'll help me rank better, it probably will." Plain and simple. Repeat as necessary.
Posted 30 March 2005 - 07:52 PM
I agree 100%, especially about the "hurts". People get all hung up on the notion that you can inadvertently get penalised for not doing the exactly right thing. IMHO that just creates FUD when in reality, there is no need for FUD at all.
Also, no one knows what the "score" is out of, but lets assume it is quite large. Dos anyone truly believe that changing from <h1>viagra</h1> to <b>viagra</b> is going to push a page up to number one from 50th?? Or better yet, rank number one for search engine?
I think people try to be "optimal", that is 100% SEOed, when we all know that is impossible forever. IMHO, rather than aiming for some mythical, non existent "optimal" on pages you already have, it is far more productive to do extra work.
Start an affiliate programme, build links, get local area press coverage, build a profile in your niche etc etc. Any of these things are far more likely to help a sites real goals, whatever they are, than changing all you <b>s to <h#>, and then back again when your test proves differently.
SEO is not the goal. A number one ranking is worth nothing, but a conversion always will be. Focus there, and not elsewhere.
Posted 30 March 2005 - 09:41 PM
I realize this is an older thread but I'm trying not to start too many new ones. Please excuse the noob.
I've had some success with both B and H but I really dislike H's mainly because they are stylistically odd looking without applying styles. Does anyone here use H1s in conjunction with Style Sheets ? Is there anything wrong with doing this ?
To be clear I'm not talking about embedding the H inside any text. My goal is to use the H1s (as the page heading) but to make them "look" a little better (smaller font appearance) and with less bottom space.
Posted 30 March 2005 - 09:59 PM
Absolutely. I think just about all of us do, if we use <h1> at all.
Only if you make them invisible. I personally don't like it when people make them look the same as normal text, or set them up to display inline (especially if they then do whole paragraphs in them), but I think it's only hiding them that could get you in trouble.
Posted 30 March 2005 - 10:07 PM
I completely agree with you that the text in H1 should appear larger than the rest of the page copy (my "opinion" too). Well I have to get busy now cleaning up all these pages! THX
Edited by AlexB, 30 March 2005 - 10:15 PM.
Posted 31 March 2005 - 01:28 AM
Posted 31 March 2005 - 05:28 AM
Ok - I should have been more careful with my terminololgy.
I agree with you in the "general" context of SEO that to be penalised is more in terms of Real no-no's like "hidden text" and the hundreds of naughties.
BUT - But what Im getting at with the word "punished or penalised" is simply this.
If you have a page constructed with overloaded code as opposed to relevent text to the reader, let alone for a SE, then there is an element of "punishment".
By this i mean that a SE as far as I can tell from the sages who know more than me, that poor code construct - does not assist in indexing etc. Hence W3C with all its painful requirements sticks up its ugly head, and the fact is a validated page is loved by SE's. The value of an H1,2,3 or B tag in a way is simply a part of .constructual page design and may or may not have greater value to a SE.
The article below may assist some who want a little info on these ideas. I dont know how correct they are or dated - but in a way it is useful to have reference point in page design.
I know that SEO is a loosing battle in a way - its not possible to be fully optimised regardless of the sales pitch.
SEO, philosophy aside and my origial questn (on the other forum) and explained here was in a broader context. I thought I made it clear IMO that I dont think any one part can be separated out as cause and effect. And yes i agree, to slavishly make SEO a requirement is making a rod for your back and with ever changing goalposts - I mean the big "G " has to keep ahhead of you guys and so promote the SEO business - yes ?
The one thing I am sure of - if your page validates with nice clean code that indexes well - (not all mine do - sorry) and then the content is what folk want to see and they dont loose consciousness trying to find your message and they press the buy button or pick up the phone - then the page is successful with H1 or B or not.
Its been fun.
Edited by Debra, 31 March 2005 - 04:37 PM.
Posted 31 March 2005 - 06:52 AM
And what about:
That won't lead to a negative either. It won't help, but it won't hurt either.
And Cloaking is an off-page factor?? I dunno, but that article is pretty off IMHO.
Posted 01 April 2005 - 04:53 PM
This is a problem I am having with one of my websites. The site is for web hosting, which is very competitive, and I have been working with 2 different keyword phases that are ranking #1 with all 3 major SE's, and I get no conversions! So much for being #1
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