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Outsourcing Work


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12 replies to this topic

#1 sheriw

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Posted 07 October 2003 - 04:58 PM

Split off from this thread.

Okay, another question related to owning your own freelance business:
How do you find a great partner when you're ready to outsource (hear the pitiful note as I drown in work here?...)
I have worked with two partners in the past. One was brilliant, was an associate producer for Oprah for several years, and wrote great, creative copy. But she was a total flake: she didn't meet deadlines, she blew off client meetings. So I fired her.
I then teamed up with a friend who is a great editor. But she is, well, average at sales copy. She also tends to wait until the last minute to start a project (okay, so I'm the type who has them done five days ahead of time, I admit it...)
She is helping with a couple of projects where editing skills take priority over creativity.
But I'm getting to the point where I need to outsource some of the projects coming in. After getting burned with the first person, and disappointed with the second, I'm leery of taking on another partner.
But I HATE turning away work; it goes against my workaholic principles :propeller:
Any tips on finding great people to work with who are highly creative, but dedicated to a strong work ethic? Has anyone else here gone through this?

Edited by Jill, 07 October 2003 - 07:14 PM.


#2 torka

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Posted 07 October 2003 - 05:26 PM

Hmmm.

The way it's usually worked for me was that we didn't start off talking about being "partners". Instead, the person who brought the client to the relationship subcontracts the other. Of course, the implication is that if it works out, it might lead to bigger-better things, but even to mention the word "partner" before you've worked with somebody can give them the wrong idea about the nature of your relationship starting off. This isn't a marriage of equals -- you have more clients than you can handle and you need to offload certain specific tasks or projects to someone else. You still "own" the client and you have the right to call the shots when it comes to the quality and timeliness of the work.

Maybe you'd want to consider "auditioning" a couple of people -- give each one a smallish project and see who does the best/most timely work for you. I would suspect it's going to be hard (not impossible, just hard) to find somebody who's equally well-skilled and equally interested in copyediting and at copywriting. And you've already got one person who's good at editing, so now you find somebody else who's good at writing copy, and you continue to farm out the editing jobs to the one and send your overflow copywriting jobs to the other. Or others, if you've located more than one. :)

There's no reason why subcontracting someone has to be an exclusive arrangement. Eventually, you could have a whole selection of subcontractors, and you would simply farm out each overflow project to them depending on the requirements of the project and their individual strengths and weaknesses.

My :eek:

Oh, yeah, and if I didn't make it clear enough above, I'll be explicit: I'm also available for subcontracting! ;)

--Torka :propeller:

#3 BrianR

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Posted 07 October 2003 - 05:34 PM

My graphic designer/ website developer and I have subcontracted work to each other for 9 years now. We've talked about a closer working relationship, but as the subcontracting one means that neither of us takes the work for granted, we decided to leave things as they are. Hey - it works, so why not??

BrianR

#4 deborah2002

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Posted 07 October 2003 - 07:51 PM

If I can jump in here, I have found some great people on this forum who can help me. I have listened carefully to the answers they give and "spoken" with them. I look to see where the strengths are and where the weaknesses lie.

One person on this forum is hopefully gonna help me with an upcoming client of mine and receive part of my fee (although we haven't discussed the particulars--it depends how much stuff my client will need).

I guess the short answer is this: check around here and listen carefully. There are some exceptional people on this board and would welcome the work!

Good Luck!
deb

#5 dragonlady7

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Posted 07 October 2003 - 08:47 PM

Ooh! Ooh! Me! Me!

But seriously, all of my work so far has come through these forums (this one and a couple other boards on similar subject matter). It's a good way to get in contact with people who have similar interests.
I haven't had any of these arrangements come through entirely yet, though. So I can't say for sure how trustworthy simply having an online community in common makes someone. I know it would have a powerful hold on me-- obviously, I've invested a lot of time and effort into my online identity, as I have the same username at four forums and have cumulatively posted well over a thousand posts over the course of a number of months, and I stand to gain a great deal if that online persona is seen as credible by the communities in question, and if I blow it and get a bad rep, then I've lost a huge investment of time and effort. So letting down a fellow member of that community would be a very poor move on my part.
However. We all know that not everyone takes these communities so seriously. I was involved today in a terribly stupid incident involving a spammer on the board where I moderate, and it's quite common (though, to give credit to the mods on these boards, I was never aware of it until I became one myself and saw all the hard work they do, among other things making sure the members have as little awareness of it as possible-- wow and :) to all of them, because I never realized how hard they were working)-- people don't take the communities seriously and try to use them to spam.
So it's perfectly possible to be taken in, here as anywhere else.
So, like any other place, you have to use your judgement.

I don't know how to gauge whether someone's got a strong work ethic-- I mean, I post a lot, so obviously I'm somehow dedicated to this place, but is that because I've got a strong work ethic, or because my work ethic is poor and I think this is playing? (I'm trying to use mind control to get you all to choose the first option. Mmmm... Is it working? Hey, I'm typing this from home, and I could be taking a nap right now if I weren't so dedicated. :whip:)
If I knew how to reliably find dedicated, creative people with fabulous work ethics, I would be a very highly paid head-hunter, and not some poor slob trying to make a buck as a writer. But, I think Deborah's right and the forums, with a few caveats, do make a good place for people with similar interests to connect. I want work, you want a worker, we can come to an agreement, etc. As long as nobody's spamming. :) It seems the most effective way to go about things, to me. I'm also looking for work on other community message boards and job boards and the like (and I assume that would be another place to look for workers), but I prefer forums because it's a person you're talking to, not a number or an email address.

I can't speak as to the arrangements one would be better off making. I've certainly been pondering this. I thought briefly that I could put together a full-service webdesign company out of just my friends, but then I thought that would be too much hassle. Instead, if I get a job and the person needs general SEO, I have a buddy I can send them to whose rates are reasonable, and I know where he lives. I know a fabulous graphic designer who can always use a job or two, I know two or three excellent web-development programmers including the guy who did Kodak.com's DHTML UI and has an expensive fencing habit he's always looking for work to support, I know an absolute XML genius with some spare time.... etc., etc. You see how it sorta grows informally. Maybe someday I'd want to make that more official, but I'd rather start simple and see where it goes from there. And I can personally vouch for each of those people; if they don't follow through on a job, I won't send them more work, and I'll tell their mom, and they'll never hear the end of it.

I think the Internet is actually reinforcing interpersonal connections... but that's probably a rant for another time. :D

#6 Jill

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Posted 07 October 2003 - 09:15 PM

Outsourcing is a tricky one. It's very, very hard for me to outsource certain things, and it basically comes down to the fact that I have a hard time believing that anyone can do what I need done, as well as I can!

And of course, they usually can't, but that's because I know exactly what I'm looking for, and they don't.

However, if you have the time to invest in a bit of training, so that the person can understand exactly what you want, it can be very rewarding. Often, however, the training can take longer than just doing the job yourself to begin with, and that's the frustrating part. You figure, why should I hire someone, pay them, and then spend more time than I would had I just done it?

You've got to learn to get past that part. Set aside those extra hours, as necessary. It's an investment. Spend the time now to free up waaaaay more time somewhere down the line.

Of course, first you have to find someone who really can do the work. That's not easy either. When you're talking about stuff that is subjective like copywriting, and even SEO to a certain extent, first you need to love their work.

I've hired numerous copywriters in the past and the only way I can do that is to look at many of their writing samples and just make sure I love it. Unfortunately, there are very few really good copywriters on the net, in my opinion. There are plenty who call themselves copywriters, but when you read their copy...umm...no.

The last time I sought out a copywriter, I started searching through all the sites on Google for "copywriting" or maybe it was "copywriter." One by one I looked at their samples, and they all sucked!

Then I found Karon's site. PAYDIRT! Finally, someone who really and truly could write copy. Copy that didn't make me think. Copy that I didn't have to read over and over again to understand. Copy that I simply read and the next thing I knew it was in my brain.

That's what a good copywriter can do.

Someone who writes great forum posts, may or may not be a good copywriter. Having knowledge on a subject and also having a way with words, can make someone a great forum post writer. Doesn't necessarily make them a great copywriter, but they may think they are nonetheless!

Still, good copy must be a taste thing, because many of those copywriters who I thought were just terrible, seemed to be busy. Someone must like their copy; I just can't imagine why!

Outsourcing SEO is similar in that no two SEOs work the same way. You really need to find someone who has the same basic SEO philosophy as you, and who writes the same kinds of Title tags, makes the same kinds of site recommendations, and that sort of thing. I've never been able to let go enough to be able to do that yet! :lol:

Jill

#7 projectphp

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Posted 07 October 2003 - 11:26 PM

On this topic, I think it comes down to defining exactly what you want and by when. If you write really good, clear briefs, people usually deliver pretty good stuff. If you make it vague, you got Buckley's of getting what you want. You also have to be willing to accept a different result to the one you would get if you did it yourself. Not a worse result, mind, just a different result.

In my experience, people who are good at things are often terrible at explaining to others what they need. You don't need a copywriter or an SEO, you need someone to do a specific job, and that needs to be explained fully. Many people will give you a task, you do it, and then they say "no, X Y and Z and also a part of what is required". That is maddenning, counter-productive to all concerned, and not the approach that is best to take.

Also, define exactly what it is, and how much, of the process you can and should outsource. Depending upon what part of the SEO process you want to outsource, there are people who can do keyword research (where is that $99 Keyword research offer again?), copywriting, web design, web programming, report writing etc etc ad nauseam. I think the trick is to find someone who is really good at one small part, and use just that part of their expertise, but manage the deal yourself. That way, you never really rely on anyone 100%. If deadlines are missed, at least you always have X% of project completed, and all client meetings are handled by you, which leads to better damage control in the long run.

#8 dragonlady7

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Posted 08 October 2003 - 06:56 AM

I think Jill's right in that "good" copywriting is a matter of taste-- you have to pick someone whose style you like, and whose style you think will appeal to your customers. (So be aware of that if you tend to like non-standard things!)

And yes, the more organized and clear you are, the better (in that it's going to be more like you would have done, or more like you expected) the work you're going to get out of your subcontractees. I get a bit nervous when I'm given vague assignments-- it takes me longer to complete them, I'm less confident, and I think the slickness of my writing can suffer because I'm afraid I'm headed in the wrong direction. This is something I'm working to improve, and something I'm sure will get better as I do more projects, because I'll have a clearer idea of what people generally want. In the meantime I'm trying to coax clear definitions out of my clients. Not easy...
I'd like to think that good writing is good writing and so there's some universal quality that will make everyone love my writing. Apparently, there's not; I too have observed Jill's phenomenon of copywriters I thought were terrible being very very busy. Diff'rent strokes for diff'rent folks, I guess. But I'm hoping I can convince them all that they should eschew their inarticulate ways and come to me because I'm the best. :lol: Well, a girl can dream, can't she?

#9 BrianR

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Posted 08 October 2003 - 05:21 PM

Maybe I'm flogging a dead horse here (in which case, just tell me to shut up), but SheriW's post at the beginning of this thread talked about her being in dire need of someone to help her with copywriting.

Meanwhile, DL7 is looking for freelance copywriting work to help build up her portfolio before she goes solo.

I could be mistaken here guys (and it won't be the last time either), but shouldn't you two be talking to each other about this??

BrianR

#10 dragonlady7

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Posted 08 October 2003 - 08:53 PM

You're so sweet, BrianR. I'll PM her about it; I just finished a volunteer job, I'm putting what portfolio I have ready online tonight, and I'm hunting for a domain name just now. (Writewright? eWordSmith? No... I knew I should've paid more attention in Marketing...) I'll be a pro fairly soon. :aloha: It'll happen. Because you guys are the best. :wacko:
In the meantime, I'm trying to have a non-promotional discussion that doesn't overstep any [url=http://www.highrankings.com/forum/index.php?act=boardrules]Forum Rules[/url], about the general topic, so I can better understand what would lead someone to hire me, and better understand what I would go through if I ever had so much work I couldn't handle it alone. Wouldn't that be a nice problem to have? Mm, on reflection it's probably a nicer problem to wish to have, than to actually have. If that made sense. Oh no, I'm supposed to be able to psychically transport ideas from one brain to another-- that's a copywriter's job! I'll have to get to work on that. (Jill's right, though. That IS a copywriter's job.) (WritePsychic.com? No. Man, I'm really bad at picking brand names.)

#11 TBroadfoot3rd

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Posted 09 October 2003 - 10:04 AM

To outsource what you can not complete in a timely manner is a good idea. To partner with someone is not because normally one of the partners doesn't hold up their end of the load causing untold amounts of stress in a world that has too much stress anyway.

So far the opinion which I agree with is to subcontract the work out and as others have suggested to farm out small projects to new people and once a track record has been established then you can increase your business with those that fit into your environment. In the world of telecommuting face to face meetings are not as practical does not mean you suspend the rules of good business practices and not train or at least test the competency level of the people you are going to place your future business success.

I hope you find the right mix of solid individuals so you can continue to grow your business.

#12 webstream

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Posted 24 October 2003 - 09:12 PM

I can relate to the issues you have experienced. From a programming point of view I try to make sure they have the same philosophy, work habits and style I expect and live by. I generally start them out with smaller assignments and keep everything in writing in contracts and outlines, which include timelines.

The hardest part can be monitoring their work, so I use IM, whiteboards and even net phones at times to discuss the work. I expect to see results every 2-3 days and we either use a private portal or some sort of hidden web accessible space.

If it becomes a more serious partnership then we generally agree to meet face to face, usually at an airport for a few hours. I am doing that next week with a team of developers to take some of the work load off me. We set a meeting outline and what we want to achieve at the meeting. If everyone is then comfortable we then move forward. But it all starts with the smaller work first and monitoring their performance.

Forums like this give me a good idea of what is fact or fiction when I am discussing projects with an SEC. I find getting the right SEC that has a good grasp of blending site optimization with dynamic content, catalogs and carts is difficult. There again it takes starting with small jobs and some luck to get a really good fit.

Good luck,

Webstream

#13 dragonlady7

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Posted 25 October 2003 - 09:17 PM

This is all very interesting to me. I have a lot to learn about being outsourced to. For me, starting out, it seems a great deal-- someone else has done all the work of finding the client, and all I have to do is the actual job! But, then the client they found is going to send referrals to that other person, if I do a good job, and my name might not even be on it. It's a more complex relationship than just having someone hand you work.
I do have to consider a lot of these things as I go along (relating to starting a business)...
I'm taking notes!
1) Similar philosophy
2) start out small
3) get it all in writing
...
Are my notes missing anything? :whistle:




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